Issues Navigator

Global Challenges

Strategic Regions

Domestic Debates

Tag cloud

See All Tags

November 11, 2011 |  47 comments |  Print  Your Opinion  

How to Strike Iran

Paul Smyth: The latest report from the International Atomic Energy Agency shows that Iran is growing ever closer to acquiring functional nuclear weapons. The time may be coming when military strikes are necessary. When that time arrives, what are the best options?

The prospect of a nuclear-armed Iran sets alarms ringing in capitals across the globe. Ayatollah Strangelove may not (yet) exist, but Tehran’s proven antagonism toward most of its neighbors, many Western states and especially Israel, ensures that few relish the thought of Iran obtaining a nuclear arsenal. Taking direct action against Iran’s developing nuclear program has therefore always been a question of "when," not "if."

The "when?" of possible military action against Iran has been influenced by intelligence assessments of the nuclear program’s progress, and is usually measured in years to go. The timing of a military intervention is critical. Executed too soon, it may thwart other coercive efforts and result in unnecessary retaliation. Too late and Iran will have achieved its goal. Embarking on an act of war when Tehran has an atomic bomb would be extremely dangerous and may invite greater retaliation (e.g. through terrorists using nuclear material). The latest IAEA report may yet usher in the inevitable period when potential military action is no longer years ahead but measured in months to go.

So if necessary, what is the best military option? A land invasion can be swiftly discarded. Iran is larger than Iraq and Afghanistan combined, so occupying the country is impractical. Even storming Tehran would be unrealistic as the capital nestles safely in the north of the country, far from (unlikely) potential bases in the Persian Gulf, Iraq and Turkey. Although temporary raiding by land and Special Forces (SF) may be possible, operational realities mean an assault against Iran would be largely an air and maritime affair.

In that case would the Libyan model of foreign air and naval forces helping indigenous revolutionaries work in Iran? Almost certainly not. First, the extent of air control achieved so swiftly in Libya may not be possible against Iran’s armed forces in a much larger battlespace. More importantly, domestic opposition to the current regime is too small and democratic to overthrow Ayatollahs who command some popular support and the loyalty of zealous Revolutionary Guard forces. The revolution in Libya sprouted from decades of violent tyranny not applicable to Iran. Iranian repression has cultivated opposition but it is essentially liberal, preferring peaceful protest over insurrection. In Iran there is no armed rebellion waiting for foreign support, so although military strikes could seriously damage the current regime, they would be unlikely to cause its downfall.

The success of the coalition campaign in Libya will raise expectations that air and sea power could prevail in Iran. Such enthusiasm must be tempered. On paper, Gaddafi had a large military which included some modern equipment. In reality, its readiness, training, serviceability and overall performance were poor, allowing coalition partners to quickly gain control of the air and sea. It would be folly to assume that Iranian forces would be as fragile. Although pariah status has undermined Iranian military capabilities, isolation has emphasized the importance of national defense, an emphasis reinforced by the zealous ideology within Iran’s large Revolutionary Guard forces. Tehran’s soldiers may lack the foreign technology sold to Gaddafi’s troops, but they will probably take their job more seriously and make better use of what they possess. More worryingly, if they cannot prevent attacks on Iranian targets they will actively seek retaliation elsewhere. Air and sea power may prevail against Iran, but not easily.

So what sort of military assault might Iran face? Independent action by Israel is possible as it feels the most threatened by Iran’s nuclear ambitions and has been preparing for this eventuality for some time. However, as Iran’s nuclear program may now have developed to a point where independent Israeli action is too small to achieve a decisive effect, a concerted effort with the US, and possibly other nations, may be needed to do so. It would also promote international legitimacy but would take longer to plan, organize and integrate, and would probably seek a sanction from the United Nations Security Council.

An allied air and maritime assault on key Iranian facilities offers the greatest return for the least risk. Concentrated effort using cruise missiles, drones, stealth and conventional manned aircraft would shorten the length of a campaign thereby reducing the required suppression of Iran’s air defenses. If rumors that Tehran has acquired modern mobile Russian surface-to-air-missiles (SAMs) are true, this suppression is more challenging but not impossible. Similarly, the siting of nuclear facilities underground can make targeting more difficult, but still achievable. Ultimately, for about 20 of the 23 years since Iran fought Saddam’s Iraq, Western forces have been in almost constant operational use, and the contrast in experience gained, lessons learned and resulting technological development is stark. If Tehran believes its nuclear program is invulnerable to attack, it is taking a significant gamble.

Paul Smyth has 30 years' association with the defense arena, as a military officer and later as a Head of Program at the Royal United Services Institute. He is currently the owner of R3I Consulting.

  • 6
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this Article! What's this?

 
 
Comments
Niklas  Anzinger

November 11, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
An excellent and insightful assessment of possible military possibilities.

Though, I still belong to the camp that believes more decisive and coercive international action against Iran´s financial arteries can do substantial damage. Of course only to a degree (which is perhaps not foreseeable from our perspective) that the time window allows, until Iran reaches a point at which nuclear-warheads are within its arsenal to strike.

Perhaps this is not the right timing, but at some point we have to assess the damage the inaction of the international community, the unwillingness to punish the regime and support the opposition. Many may not have the impression, but counter to Western leaders rhetoric, coercive action has been quite limited. Still, maybe there is still options if the IAEA report was a wakeup call, for e.g. sanctioning the Iranian Central Bank.
 
valentine anatolevich akishkin

November 12, 2011

  • 4
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
This is a very aggressive, thoughtless, irresponsible and damaging piece of writing. As yet, there are no explicit up to date sources that may with any certainty assert that Iran has or is working on atomic weapons, whereas Israel, its nearby neighbour, seems to be in the shade of any such suspicions, though we all know better.
It is obvious that the more talk there is about the details of how a military block may ‘best’ go about attacking a country inevitably involving the death of thousands of innocent civilians; credit should be given to the ambiance of the people targeted. It becomes an extremely rational reason for them to seek refuge in atomic weaponry.
I am a Russian and I do not think any European country would feel itself at ease if Russian mass media, for some inexplicable, irrational reason, began openly discussing how Russia could turn any European country into a desert by using a few miniature atom bombs, or should it be more ‘appropriate’ to run a land operation or use some poisonous gas.
The best way to deal with this question would be to give absolute, unswerving, convincing guarantees to any country that requires them that under no circumstances will it be attacked unless the country opens warfare on another country. Today, to my great regret, these guarantees coming from NATO enhanced countries are totally unconvincing. Recent events have shown how easily NATO involves itself in matters that in no way endanger European security. Europe is no warrant in matters of security as it is nothing more than an immature conglomeration of dissimilarities led by an overseas bellwether.
No European country will ever dare even think of starting warfare on Iran unless it gets a comprehensive approving nod from the US officialdom. Obama – the Noble Prize Winner for Peace is nothing more than an intellectually polished mouth piece driven by an aggressive war hawking US lobby.
Tags: | ATTACK ON IRAN |
 
Niklas  Anzinger

November 12, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr. Akishkin,

First, "many analysts asked why Iran, which had huge oil and gas reserves, needs to invest in a program to produce electricity from nuclear reactors? Why did Iran need to build a huge infrastructure at Natanz to enrich uranium for nuclear reactors that it didn't even have? And why did it keep this industry secret if it only had civilian applications?"

Second, "The November 2011 report showed that the IAEA no longer had "suspicions" about the Iranian weaponization program - it had hard intelligence from "more than ten Member States." There was documentation in Farsi detailing the safety arrangements for conducting an actual nuclear test. The Iranians had also sought to obtain uranium for a secret enrichment program, that would not be under IAEA safeguards."

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=1&DBID=1&LNGID...

Western intelligence knows about Iranian nuclear ambitions for years. The danger is the ideology driving the Iranian regime, religious zealotry, genocidal anti-Semite rhetoric and the determination to carry out its plan by any means against all domestic dissidence, including violence against protests, gays, women and religious minorities.

Also, the so called "hawking US lobby" does nothing more than insist on the international community to stop Iran via coercive measures before we have to enter a costly, brutal and damaging air strike against nuclear faculties - not in any other fashion than to prevent a war. Look at their arguments, we all want the same thing - but we have to keep realistic about the above mentioned facts.

Mr. Akishkin, the Western states need the Russians to support further coercive measures for exactly the means you mentioned: to prevent an inescapable military confrontation. The unwillingness of Russia (also the China, several European states, especially Germany, well, in fact everyone could have done more) may force Israel or the US, or the Arab states, who know very well about Iran´s ambitions, into a very dangerous situation with the options getting lesser. Russia chose a wrong track against Iran, a track that is in fact driving into the direction you want to prevent.

As we need Russia´s support, I urge you to look at the IAEA report and other sources reporting the state of the art in Iran and draw the right conclusions out of it. There was no doubt before among serious analysts, but the report should make it clear once and for all.

There are still options to avoid a military confrontation, I think, but we need you in the boat. And I can assure you that is the very same argument the Israelis and the Americans, also the "hawks" put forward.
 
Florian  Broschk

November 12, 2011

  • 7
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
The fuss about the Iranian nuclear program has to a large degree always been a shortsighted, self-fueled issue of group-thinking without prospect for a 'good ending'.

There can be little doubt that a nuclear "outbreak" capacity is in today's world the only true guarantee of not being chosen for "regime change". Iran's leaders - the current ones, the inner-system opposition as well as the 'green movement' - would be fools not to pursue this capacity. Building, testing and officially owning a nuclear weapon would be an existential problem for Iran, given that not only the current leadership but also founding father Khomeini has already and very energetically declared these weapons unislamic, a verdict that is not easily aborated unless the very being of the Islamic Republic seems in danger. And with regard to the latest IAEA-report we should not fool ourselves in pretending that international bodies such as the IAEA are not subject to political pressures and decisions - this is true not only for the last one under Amano as well as the previous ones under al-Baradai.

Additionally, a civilian use of atomic energy of course decidedly makes sense for Iran. The first argument by Mr. Anzinger in his post above thus does not stand scrutiny as Iran has not only huge oil reserves (which will run out in the future as most are aware, but for the time being can be sold to generate income; buying it back after refinery, as Iran is forced to do due to limitied refinery facilities however makes decidedly no sense economically) but also uranium. Using this uranium for energy and possibly also for export in the future - the green party in Germany will not like it - does make sense, there can be no doubt. Another, very important point - the program is immensely popular throughout the Iranian society: being perceived as the most modern and scientifically advanced technology, mastering it does mean a huge image gain. In a nation aware of being only a third world country, but with an ever present sense of historic greatness, the nuclear program is basically the only political issue a huge majority of Iranians can agree on. Giving it up without enormous political concessions from the US would mean political suicide for any politician.

On the other hand, an attack on the program would be a god-sent gift for the political hard-liners who thus do little to avoid it. It would not only lead to a rally-around-the-flag effect, but also be a wonderful pretext for changing the inner-regime balance of power. Ahmadinezhad will not be able to run in the next elections and his supporters find themselves increasingly more marginalized inside the system, which could indeed mean that an Israeli or even better (the bigger the better) US-attack would mean their best and probably last chance for altering the structures of power before it is too late.

As Western policy should not take the interests of the Iranian hardliners into account, but those of the West, costly military action makes no sense at all if it just to set back a program, that will be continued anyway. Some small scale killings of Iranian nuclear scientists, support for anti-Iranian terrorist groups such as Jundullah will continue, as will Iranian actions of a likewise character. But since the option of a military strike has been handled less than discretely throughout the last decade, it is hard to conceive that the Iranians will be surprised and have all their key-scientists, critical materiel and ressources gathered in the well-known facilities.

So - yes, it is without doubt possible to attack Iranian facilities by air, destroy some of them, kill some scientists, researchers and technicians and set back the programm for a while. It will also not be too risky for the militaries involved. It can also ethically be defended. As our democratice ancestors from Athens lectured the Melians: "...right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" - and there cannot be any doubt that we are the stronger side.

Attacking Iran might indeed make sense from a domestic perspective (given that most domestic audiences are frightened of Iran, despise its regime and care not too much about the people), so as to demonstrate determination and draw attention on an external enemy. For me it is simply foolish as a policy action which takes national interests into account. We can as well bombard the Indian ocean and congratulate ourselves. Indeed, this might have less negative repercussions in the long run.
 
Paul  Smyth

November 12, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Dear Florian,

a great post, thanks.

One echo with a para the editors chose to leave out from the submitted version:

However hard it tries, Iran will not convince outsiders that the reason for it’s nuclear programme is to supplement it’s huge oil and gas resources with atomic energy. Instead, suspicions grow that the real purpose of the programme is to build a nuclear weapon, and why wouldn’t it be? The Ayatollahs have noticed that none of the regimes defeated by international coalitions over the past 20 years had a nuclear weapon. The logic is simple, once Iran is nuclear armed it will be safe from foreign invasion and imposed regime change. As a pariah state the risks in pursuing an atomic bomb are significant, but events elsewhere suggest the prize justifies the danger. From Tehran’s truculent perspective it would be daft not to seek a nuclear arsenal.

Paul

 
Paul  Smyth

November 12, 2011

  • 2
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Dear Valentine,

hi, I'm not sure which adjectives, verbs or arguments in the article deserve the description 'This is a very aggressive, thoughtless, irresponsible and damaging piece of writing.' but you are of course free to make your own assessment.

I suppose I should respond to some of your points.

Is it surprising that a secret weaponization programme would not furnish explicit evidence? No. Are there sufficient grounds to raise serious suspicions of Iran's intentions? Yes, at least the IAEA thinks so.

The paper was not about Israel.

The title of the article was chosen by the editor(s), not by me. The original was 'Iran’s Nuclear Programme - Military Options Getting Closer'. I don''t think I am a war-monger.

Iran should pay attention to what the international community thinks about it's nuclear programme, however, critical, or not, that coverage may be. Similarly, the Iranian people should be aware of how the policies followed by their rulers are viewed beyond Iran's borders.

Yours

Paul

 
Florian  Broschk

November 13, 2011

  • 3
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Dear Paul,

the main points I wanted to make above is

1. Iran will continue its nuclear program and probably has taken more than enough precautions to be able to do so after an attack everyone already expects for quite a while, and

2. actually, the current leadership of Iran will with a near-certain likelihood welcome the attack you are talking about. Far from being a threat, to them it would be a mighty gift - as the burning of the Reichstag was to the Nazis in 1933 or Saddams attack in 1980 was to Khomeini. This might seem a bit counterintuitive on the first glance, but is perfectly rational when you look into the inner-system dynamics. Just look at the reactions of ordinary Americans after 9/11. To have something like this in their own country (maybe even a bombing campaign which lasts for days and leaves scores of Iranian civilians and its brightest scientists dead in front of Iranian TV cameras) is the wet dream of every Iranian hardliner.

Without doubt, while such an attack enormously benefits these Iranian hardliners, it will cause enormous costs for the West.

As a result, I see us on the brink of doing them the next gigantic favor after 9/11 - removing the Taliban, replacing Saddam with a pro-Iranian Shi'i regime and now attacking them with less than decisive force while leaving them in possession of the program which they do not need right now anyway (no mood for an all-out invasion in sight for the next years). It is ironic: Iran can hardly be counted as the closest friend and ally of the West - unfortunately, when it comes to regional politics we end up doing their dirty jobs, now (possibly) for the third time in a row, strengthening their position with each war we fight and all this at horrendous costs to our own position. So we act, we pay the bill and they benefit - again and again.

Thus, while I agree with you that we can attack Iran, we should think well whether using the military as an instrument seemingly against Iran in the end benefits our own interests - or theirs.
 
Unregistered User

November 13, 2011

  • 2
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
All:

There was a conference in 2002 in Herzliya - MOSAD's headquarters - which was attended by Sir Michael Quinlan during which he presented a discussion of Iranian nuclear case. See here:
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Walkers_World_Can_Iran_Nukes_Be_Sto...

The conclusion that I draw is that the power to undo nuclear Iran does not exist in the international arena. Certainly Israel does not have that power. They would only make Iranians mad and will make Israel the object of millennial hatred of Shia Muslims.

For the United States - even disregarding her current predicaments as well as her political impediments to military actions against Iran - she will have to scrape together all her air assets from around the world to launch an effective attack, setting Iran back a 2 or 3 years.

But it will take weeks for her to so and the Iranians would know beforehand.

And any US war with Iran, by military logic, will lead to ground invasion by US Army and Marines. I expect the war could last more than 4 years with 60,000 dead and wounded in Iran and about 6,000 dead and wounded Americans.

[In order for US to bring state collapse in Iran, she will have to kill between 5 to 7 percent of the Iranian population of about 80 million. That is a number between 4 million to 5.6 million souls. She will only be able to accomplish that using nuclear weapons. I do not expect US to do so. I expect the war to go on for months and years]

Since independent Iranian power is essential to the security of Russia (and China) I expect that the Russians will begin to resupply Iran sometime in the second year of the war through Astrakhan, across the Caspian Sea. [Sort of like Roosevelt and the Lend-Lease program that kept UK resupplied.] At that point, US will either have to attack Russian vessels – thus starting World War III – or to sue for a cease-fire. The war will be stalemated at that point.

From a strategic point of view, such a war never makes any sense of US, independent Iranian power is not a threat to US. It is a threat to US dependencies such as Saudi Arabia and Israel – with whom US does not have a formal alliance structure. But Americans are in a state of Love with Israel and they will pay a high price to advance her interests – largely due the influence of the Protestant Christian churches in US.

I personally believe that the strategic autonomy of Iran cannot be reversed. Too many non-Iranians are now dependent for their security and their place in the world on the continued existence of the Mountain Fortress of the Shia Muslims called Iran. Among them you could count Christian Armenians, Shia Iraqis, Iraqi Kurds, Hazara, Tajiks (both in Afghanistan in Tajikistan), Syrians (all religions), and Shia Lebanese.

Lastly, neither US nor EU have any positive program for the area between Hindu Kush to the Mediterranean Sea – as this commentator and those who agree with him clearly demonstrate. All US and EU are offering are more death, more destructions, and more maiming of the native populations of the Near East.

And this, in my opinion, is the reason that US and EU will fail in the Middle East – Death is not a positive program.
 
Unregistered User

November 15, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?

If there is an economic strategy success by global dimensions, with the recent declaration
that the 21st century is and will be America's Pacific Century, the announcement of
President Obama's South Pacific Free Trade Zone needs to be commented.
As you know the US has already Free Trade with Colombia and Panama, as well as South
Korea, in addition to Ecuador complying with the US-$ equivalent, not to forget the Philippines
So,now we need to add Chile, Peru, New Zealand, Australia, Brunei, Malaysia and Vietnam.
But this economic dimension should not disregard our military desire to put US Naval
Bases into Australia, Vietnam and others.
With the rest of our military bases in the Pacific and Japan expressing interest in the Free Trade Agreement, it certainly will be America's Pacific Century.
All this is happening while the Holocaust and Iran is keeping Europe, Russia and many others at bay on the Arabian Peninsula....
The Balfour Declaration made the US accountable for Israel and the Holocaust made
Germany responsible to Israel.
The Arabian Peninsula was free of nuclear weapons until Israel came, uninvited.
Israel was favored by several nations and especially the US with accepting nuclear technology and started to built a ( nuclear) defense complex second to none on the Peninsula.
It became an exceptional accumulation of military hardware on a small section of land.
So, the Germans came into play, after all their expertise in military matters was still appreciated, especially in submarine warfare. Now, the Germans were/ are not only building very advanced submarines for Israel, which included nuclear delivery system on board, but also showed Israel how to apply them as an " outer ring warfare instrument".
These subs can now sit submerged on every coast line, especially the Arabian Peninsula
and everybody knows that.
This is by no means supporting justification for Iran's actions or in-actions.
Germany, for example is sitting there with about fifty US nuclear warheads and Toronado
fighters waiting for them to be delivered... perhaps Russia.
Wouldn't you think Pakistan, leave alone Russia and China could just help out with a few nuclear warheads to Iran, if Israel decides to attack and which the US would probably have to support and perhaps is obliged to support.
Iran is presently trying to become a member of the Shanghai Cooperation, it has already observer status.
Why do I say all this, because up to now it was and is an interesting game, but if this bubble, like our economic bubble, bursts, it will then unfortunately be America and Israel against the rest of other major populations.
Both parties have to stand down, Iran and Israel, with Israel simply allowing inspections
by Nuclear Authorities.

HRF







Tags: | iran/tx |
 
Jason  Naselli

November 15, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
I agree with Florian that the Iranian hardliners might welcome an attack, but what are the other options? None of them are good. In this hypothetical scenario, Iran is on the brink of acquiring a functional nuclear weapon.

I think the scariest thing about Iranian nukes would be the various groups vying for power internally, who might attempt to hijack it for their own ends, and not so much the government themselves.
 
Unregistered User

November 15, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
The following article - by a former US State Department oficial of Iranian origin - captures the Iranian strategic calculus quite well.

http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/the-iranian-american-game-ch...

Where I think he is wrong is his characterization of Mr. Ahmadinejad and the claim (by him) that Iranians discount US or Israeli attacks.

On the Iranian nuclear program, here is a perspective from Australia

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3664472.html

 
Jason  Naselli

November 15, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Shaban,

If you are a member, please remember to log in so other members can rate your comments and see other articles you've commented on. You'll also avoid the captcha codes. If you're not yet a member, you can register for free here: http://www.atlantic-community.org/index/users/register
 
Kazimierz  Wiesak

November 15, 2011

  • 2
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
@ Jason,

I have two points.

1. 16 US intelligence agencies unanimously wrote in 2007 "We judge with high confidence that in fall 2003, Tehran halted its nuclear weapons program"

see http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20071203_release.pdf

At about the same time premier Putin said "We have no information that Iran is working on the creation of a nuclear weapon". Also, as you may know, all knowledge about Iran's nuclear weapons program before 2003 comes from one laptop reportedly smuggled out of Iran. No other significant evidence was discovered.

The next National Intelligence Estimate on Iran was made in 2011. It is classified, so we don't have access to it. Why was it classified? My thinking leads me to a conclusion that it was probably similar to 2007 report, hence the powers that push for war against Iran classified it.

The final conclusion is clear. The intelligence services of USA and Russia do not say that Iran has nuclear military program. Only the media feed us with daily doses of distortions and misinformations until most people start believing it. But let's keep the distinction between intelligence reports and reports by the owners and editors of "free media". Those are two different things.

2. Iran didn't start agressive war for last 250 years, longer than Sweeden. It means that we should fear Iran less than we fear many other countries that started wars in more recent years.
Tags: | Iran nuclear war |
 
Bernhard  Lucke

November 16, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
A war against Iran has to be prevented at all costs. Thank you for the many and interesting points made in the discussion, but regarding the article, I find this war-mongering just disgusting.
 
Unregistered User

November 16, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Bernhard Lucke:

This war-mongering is also infantile as it pays no attention to the shape of the Peace that would inevitably will follow any war.

As an Iranain, I long ago concluded that the cavalier journalistic threats from US & EU were only possible because Iran did not have the power to retaliate.

These Journalistic Threats are not going to make Iranians (or other non-Europeans) surrender.

They serve the purpose of accelerating the current process of making the world more dangeorous.

 
Paul-Robert  Lookman

November 17, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr Smyth: I would never have accepted “How to Strike Iran” as title above an article that I as an author had baptized “Iran’s Nuclear Programme - Military Options Getting Closer”. The fact that it happened once again shows what the editor-in-chief of this “open think-tank” is trying to do: massage public opinion to accept a strike on Iran, or generally, blindly follow the US neocon agenda. This has little to do with a fruitful peer’s discussion, this is pure propaganda. The fact that the editor-in-chief left out the last paragraph of your op-ed , which helps putting your message more clearly in perspective, gives even more food for thought.

Just for the record: there are intimate insiders on the issue who see nothing new in the IAEA-report. See for example “Former IAEA Inspector: Misleading Iran report proves nothing” on http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-PfuciW1us0. And you might like to watch the video clip that you will find on http://geopolitiek-in-perspectief.blogspot.com/2011/11/hoe-amerika-... plus the comments that follow. Did you see the last two NSEs that were submitted to Congress? These make it clear and explicit that the Iranian threat is not military. Iranian military expenditures are quite low, even by regional standards.

All there is to an Iranian threat is that Iran is perceived to “destabilize” the region. Surely you know what that means. Stabilize means “follow US orders”. When the US invades Iran’s neighbouring countries Afghanistan and Iraq, that is stabilizing. If Iran expands its influence in the region, that is destabilizing. Perhaps the title of your op-ed should have read: “How to repair the damage inflicted by the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, and rebalance power in the region.”
 
Jason  Naselli

November 17, 2011

  • 2
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Folks,

I think we've lost the plot here a little bit. I see nothing in the article that is advocating war: it is a hypothetical that analyzes what the probable outcomes would be. If anything, it is concluding that such an incident would be a difficult and destructive task, and so I think if anything it comes down on the side of avoiding conflict. However, I take your point about the title, and see how it could be misconstrued.

You will see we also highlighted an article in our Top Press Commentaries, from John Johns, retired US Army General, which is very much against military action and takes people, specifically the Republican presidential candidates, to task for bloviating on a subject they seem to understand very little about. That was the value I saw in this article, an exploration of what exactly a strike on Iran would look like, something that gets missed sometimes in the endless back and forth. It is hardly "war-mongering".
 
Paul-Robert  Lookman

November 17, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr Omid: thank you for the links to two very enlightening and sobering articles on Iran. I agree with your comment on the characterization in the first article of Mr Ahmadinejad.

Mr Naselli: with the title above an article clearly misleading, it is never too late to change it back to the author’s original version. It is true that you are featuring John Johns’ op-ed highlighting “the other end of the spectrum,” but that is not an open think-tank issue, “disappears” quickly and permanently from AC’s front page and comes far after Paul Smyth’s “How to strike Iran”.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

November 17, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
I find asking myself, when reading the comments here, why the so called "US neocons", or "Hawks" or some kind of "war mongers", which I obviously read because how could I for myself carry the opinion that Iran´s behavior is aggressive (I´m pretty sure that nobody pays me, if someone gets paid, please tell me where to get the money!), never argue for going to war with Iran, but precisely are consent about stopping Iran in order to prevent a war? I found in fact not a single analyst or media not admitting that military action against Iran would be very dangerous and costly, the most strongest insisting to carry out coercive action against Iran in order not to be forced in a military conflict is the Israeli government.

Wait, obviously this is some kind of trick ... they all know very well that they want to attack Iran, but what they say is only a tactic; if at a certain point x ... then military action, so media and propaganda make sure that everyone believes point x to take place - and then: didn´t we say that it was preventable? Oh, what a tricky and murky tactic, they are really good!

Right ...
 
Paul-Robert  Lookman

November 17, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr Naselli: in just a few hours you gained yourself two points with your last contribution. That is why I take the liberty to share a few more thoughts with you.

You say you saw value in “an exploration of what exactly a strike on Iran would look like.” With AC's mission statement in mind, I wonder how a guide for military action in Iran can be of any interest to AC-members, especially if the piece does not make the proviso that such action would be unwarranted without a “smoking gun” and illegal under international law if not covered by a clear UNSC mandate.

Surely the op-ed does not fall in the category of publications from “students and young professionals” eager to “debate with decision-makers on an equal footing.” I wonder if [technical] options for military action will “strengthen the transatlantic community” and appeal to “all spheres of society (government, economy, media, culture, science)”, while the discourse neither seems to serve “the search for solutions to current global challenges.”

The way I see it, this piece neither seems to contribute any “new ideas and concepts of how Europe and America can cooperate over foreign and security policy as well as globalization in the twenty-first century.” The publication, to me, is not “constructive, nonpartisan” and does tot aim “at problem solving.”

I look forward to seeing a next op-ed on AC with a road map for diplomacy (which the newly introduced Iran Threat Reduction Act of 2011 seems to oppose) with Iran, and for achieving a nuclear-free Middle East.
 
Jason  Naselli

November 17, 2011

  • 2
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr. Lookman,

As you have been contributing to this site for a long time, you certainly know that we take a broad perspective in discussing transatlantic issues. In this case, the Iranian nuclear program is an issue that affects the global community and thus is inherently interesting for AC.

In the case of this article, I would note that back in 2003, in the rush to war with Iraq, very few took the time to look at all the variables. Indeed, there was nearly no plan for after the fall of Saddam and little to no conception among the top decision makers or the public about how ugly it would get. I certainly don’t recall any constructive discussion of HOW the Iraq invasion would look, merely an endless drumbeat of its necessity. Perhaps if they had taken the time to think through the consequences and realities, they would not have been so quick to rush off to war.

As for a roadmap for diplomacy with Iran and a nuclear-free Middle East, we would welcome an op-ed that addressed these issues and how to achieve them.
 
Unregistered User

November 17, 2011

  • 2
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
All:

A somewhat detailed discussion of war with Iran may be found @ http://csis.org/files/publication/111108_irans_evolving_nuclear_for...

There have been several war games in US on the subject of Iran; the details of all of them are classified. The conensus of the war-gamers was the same: "Do not do it".

Mr. Jason Naselli:

Your assertion: "...an exploration of what exactly a strike on Iran would look like..." reminds me of a scene in the movie "The Foreign Correspondent" in which an old man in a party states that "War is inevitable". To which a young woman retorts: "Why is it that always war is inevitable but not peace."

Perhaps you or one of your commentators could sketch what peace with Iran would look like; somenthing other than Plato's "Slave must learn to be slaves and rulers act like rulers."

In regards to Nuclear Free Middle East, that is a pipe-dream that will not happen, ever. US or EU will never seriouly pressure Israel to join NPT. I am metaphysically certain of that.

And again, in 2007, after the US intelligence report on Iran, EU states had the opportunity to take a new path with Iran. At that time, President Ahmadinejad stated: "A few more things like this and we will not have any problems."

That neither US nor EU took that path but rather continued on the path of confrontation indicated to me - and most likely to the Iranian leaders - that the nuclear issue was not germaine to the the US-EU & Iran confrontation.

As an Iranian, I came to the conclusion that US-EU policy objective is the destruction of independent Iranian power (geo-political autonomy).

Well, I think that is a bridge too far and you cannot achieve that aim.

May be you should alter your policies, Americans cannot.

 
Joshua  Clapp

November 18, 2011

  • 2
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Paul, thanks for the article covering the military options with regards to Iran. And Florian makes a good point that an attack could strengthen the regime, while such an attack would not necessarily guarantee an end to the nuclear program or nuclear ambitions. In light of this fact, I would second Niklas’ point that certain countries – such as Russia or Germany – should be more supportive of ‘coercive measures’ in order to lessen the risk of an attack.

If it is the case that some kind of military attack must be considered, it should at least be a truly last resort. I believe Paul was sketching out how this last resort could possibly look. The article does not call for or incite war. But if decision-makers are considering military action, then all scenarios should be considered. Some commentators here have confused calls for war with the article’s analysis of possible scenarios.

In the real world, decision-makers are considering military options. As such, we must think about and discuss these options and their consequences. The article considers such issues. We could close our eyes, ignore the subject, and call other people names. Or we can address the subject matter head on.

On a side note, as regards the subject of ‘war games’ and Iran, I can recommend ‘Ayatollah for a Day’, at http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/11/10/ayatollah_for_a_da...
 
Joerg  Wolf

November 18, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Re diversity of articles: We had plenty of articles on diplomacy and engagement with Iran, most recently on October 31, 2011:

Overcoming the Paradox of Iranian Sanctions
Sascha Lohmann: The ever increasing use of sanctions against Iran reveals their actual function as a policy substitute. An engagement strategy based on concrete reciprocity should be used to fill this strategic void.
http://www.atlantic-community.org/index/Open_Think_Tank_Article/Ove...

Twelve months ago, AC members co-wrote an Atlantic Memo with an elaborate plan for Engaging Tehran with Concrete Reciprocity, which included work on a Nuclear Weapon Free Zone in the Middle East in phase 3.
http://www.atlantic-community.org/index/Open_Think_Tank_Article/Eng...

On October 13, we published:

Israel's Old Road is Rapidly Fading as Times Change in Middle East
John Taylor: While the Jewish state remains the strongest military power in the Middle East, it is increasingly isolated in a region undergoing dramatic political change. Israel needs to adopt a policy of engagement and dialogue with its neighbors in order to safeguard its position in the region.
http://www.atlantic-community.org/index/articles/view/Israel%27s_Ol...



 
Unregistered User

November 18, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Joerg Wolfe and Others:

The only way that you can make sure that Iran is not building nuclear weapons is to occupy that country.

Neither you (EU) nor US has that many soldiers.

And the Russians are not going to sit idle while you destroy their strategic buffer of Iran.

Nor would the Chinese.

There is also no system of inspections that you could construct and foist on Iran that would guarantee that Iranains are not building nuclear weapons. David Kay discussed that some time ago - please see:

http://nationalinterest.org/article/in-the-tunnels-of-natanz-3381

Your policy of ever increasing sanctions has and will hurt Iran but it hurts you and US more; no doubt.

The Nuclear-Free Middle East is irrelevant to Iran.

The Iranian program is driven by the nuclear tests of Pakistan and India.

And for that reason, Iranains will never surrender their nuclear program.

Since the end of World War II, Iran has been the only country that has been subject to WMD attacks (by Iraq).

You (EU states) helped Iraq in that war; there were 82 companies in EU that helped the Chemical Weapons Program of Iraq.

US supplied them with air intelligence and target selection for the use of the WMD.

US & UK sabotaged Iran's complain to UNSC when she was attacked by Chemical Weapons.

Hundreds of thousands of people fled Tehran at times to avoid possible chemical weapns attacks by Iraq.

Never again will Iranain leaders permit that to happen.

The best you can hope to achieve with Iran is some sort of detente - Iranians will not deploy nuclear weapons and you will rescind sanction of Iran (UNSC, US, and EU).

Since the best is not suffcient for you - since EU and US are after the elimination of Iranian strategic autonomy - I expect the confrontation to continue from Hidu Kush to the Mediterranean Sea for the next few decades.

Until the strategic situation changes again.

 
Niklas  Anzinger

November 18, 2011

  • 2
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr. Omid,

why would sanctions hurt US/EU themselves more than Iran? Wouldn´t that sound rather strange to one unfamiliar with that topic who would just judge by size of the two economies? How would you explain that to some one like this?

That the Iranian nuclear program is driven by Pakistan/India is not a reason, there is no argument behind it - so please bring also light into that, also because, though dealing with that topic for quite a time, I never heard about that argument.

Point given that Western states supported the Iraqi chemical weapons program (especially Germany), but they also supported Iran, both sides - cynical as it sounds and no reason to be proud (more than to be ashamed) of. So let´s assume that the Iraqi WMD attempts are a major reason for Iranians to build WMDs, why wasn´t Iran thankful to the Americans for having removed Saddam and ending the threat of Iraqi WMDs?

Finally, your argument about Iranian autonomy. This is quite true actually, but can´t this be reasonable? If one threatens to wipe another country of the map, if this is actually what "strategic autonomy" allows ambitions to pursue, isn´t one be obliged to say that this is not a good thing?

I ask you because I see some truth behind what you are saying, but I am not sure what argument you want to present.
 
Paul-Robert  Lookman

November 18, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr Omid,

Once again an interesting and sobering contribution. I, for one, appreciate and sympathize with your arguments, which make sense from a historic point of view and if one looks at them from Iran’s standpoint. As regards history, insiders know that Iraq was encouraged by the US to attack Iran, with just about a million deaths as a consequence. That’s the sobering truth. Robert Fisk’s “The Great War for Civilization” is telling.

There is an interesting videoclip on RT (http://rt.com/news/us-muslim-policy-sheuer-895/), featuring historian and former CIA officer Michael Scheuer, who believes that it’s the Israeli Lobby in America that is dragging the US into wars. To quote Mr Scheuer:

“…for the last 20 years, the US has been very efficient in creating enemies and endangering security. The last four American presidents have been telling the population that the wars the US wages abroad are against a bunch of madmen, and in no way religious wars. We are definitely fighting a religious war. And until we come to realize that – we are never going to be able to defeat it.”
 
Unregistered User

November 19, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Niklas Anzinger:

Thank you for your comments.

The sanctions have heart you and US as you lose both the markets and political influence. That increases costs of many of your policies; such as in Afghanistan but also elsewhere. Not all of these costs are tangible - some of them are losses of economic as well as political/diplomatic opportunity. For instance, Mr. Obama’s stated objectives on (nuclear) disarmament, Peace in Palestine, Peace in Afghanistan, Iraq were all dependent on their success on the cooperation of Iran.

After the nuclear tests of Pakistan and India, I and many other Iranians concluded that Iran - for the reasons of state cohesion and security - should exit NPT in 1998 and build and deploy nuclear weapons. Now you - who lives under the nuclear security blanket of NATO - are stating that our fears - having been subject to WMD attacks by an enemy supported to the hilt by your governments - are unjustified.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, clearly based on prejudice and not Reason.

It might be too late to leave NPT peacefully but not late enough not to have all the elements of nuclear deterrence in place.

As for EU states cynically supporting us, that is false. EU companies were supporting WMD attacks against Iran. What astonished me was that in spite of that fact so many Iranian leaders were still well-disposed to EU.

Iranians would have been happy to work with US but US was not interested. Iran was on the list of countries to be attacked by US, UK, Spain, and Norway and assorted other Christian states.

You have alluded to a purported rhetorical statement by the Iranian President on Israel. It is along the same vein as Mrs. Clinton’s “We will obliterate Iran” comment.

Perhaps you could explain what you have in mind when you use the word “reasonable”.

What would you find a reasonable exercise of Iranian strategic autonomy?

Please supply an example.
 
Unregistered User

November 19, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Paul-Robert Lookman:

Thank you for your kind words.

My observation of the United States has been that the very many of the Protestant Churches in US are deeply supportive of the State of Israel.

Apparently this line of thought, this emotional attachment, began in UK in the 19-th Century as a form of religious revival among Protestants.

Now, in US, this is an established and unassailable feature her political consensus.

She is the Champion of Israel and her Protestant population - still the dominant ethnic group there - support that posture.

One of the ramifications of US war against Iraq has been that the exteme minority position that US (and Israel) are trying to destroy Islam has become an accepted fact by tens of millions of people. In Punjab, that is what most people have come to believe.

There is a religious war in Palestine between Judaism and Islam. It began early in the 20-th century as a communal war between European Jewish settlers and the native Arabs (Christians & Muslims). Over the decades, it has become a religious war with US (and EU) on one side of this war.

The following is the list of Muslim states who do not have diplomatic relations with Israel:

1. Afghanistan
2. Algeria
3. Bahrain
4. Bangladesh Brunei
5. Chad
6. Comoros
7. Djibouti
8. Indonesia
9. Iran
10. Iraq
11. Kosovo
12. Kuwait
13. Lebanon
14. Libya
15. Malaysia
16. Maldives
17. Mali
18. Morocco
19. Niger
20. Oman
21. Pakistan
22. Saudi Arabia
23. Somalia
24. Sudan
25. Syria
26. Tunisia
27. United Arab Emirates
28. Yemen

To the extent that EU states harmionize their policies with US, they will face the consequences.

There are no margins in a religious war against Islam; no country, even the United States, can survive its consequences.
 
Unregistered User

November 19, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
All:

Full text of Chinese Premier Wen's statement at 14th China-ASEAN Summit

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-11/18/c_131255936.htm

This is to be contrasted with US-EU declarations on the Middle East.

Draw your own conclusions.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

November 22, 2011

  • 2
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr. Omid,

you are aboslutely right that Peace in the Middle East (Iraq, Afghanistan) depend on the actions of Iran. Iran has shown to have an interest in boycotting efforts to bring peace and democratic institutions to those countries (as hollow and naive it might sound, and the less the effort was successful in one´s eyes). They did so by supporting terrorist groups and militant Shiite forces - Wikileaks only confirmed what we knew before. Losing markets? Of course, but in the long term US/EU consider Iranian hegemony to be counter to the interests of peace and democracy, and they are absolutely justified in doing so. One does not support heavily armed apocalyptic lutatics with ideological training to kill civilians and enforce rigid Islamic moral codes on the people in their range of power (Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad etc.) if it wasn´t for a reason that Iran can coherently share. In the long-term thus, US/EU have to chose between losing markets and arming the most radical elements in the Middle East.

I can make an endless list of support of terrorist activites in North Africa, Latin America, the Middle East and terrorist attempts in all parts of the world that indicate all the same: the Iranian regime is not that different from any other terrorist squad because they have state resposibility and international legitimacy, in fact they have more determination and more capabilities. Including terror, torture, executions and repression of women, gays and minorities in Iran. So both on a rational economic and on a moral level, the Iranian regime has lost its legitimacy, which is unfortunately not in the West´s range to consider in the whole picture.

Why would Iran be interested in working with the US after the hijacking ot the US embassy in 1979 without sending an apology? Carter was in fact beneficial for the Islamic Revolution, it would have been a good timing. But let´s not argue about past events, let´s argue about the current state of affairs. In what way is supporting Hamas and Hisbollah beneficial for Iranian security interests? Israel is not what pragmatic analysts call a "natural threat", neither the other way round. In fact, both would naturally benefit from one another. The conflict is on an ideological level which has abandoned secular reason.

The US support for Israel bares only minor religious reason, it is mostly because Israel has similar values, a similar story and is a very good strategic ally. If we want to see democracy in the region then the other countries have to look at Israel how it works. All the other countries you listed are non-democratic. Because many people believe in the anti-Israel propaganda does not make it true or less a tactic of authoritarian regimes. The problem is the lack of democracy in those countries, not Israel or the US (as many mistakes they did).

In the words of Farid Ghadry, Reform Party of Syria, "Israel is the Litmus test for all Muslims in the region that defines whether you are for freedom or oppression, democracy or autocracy, human rights or abusers of rights."

Most of the coutries you mention cannot afford to go counter US politics for the sake of the ideological disposition against Israel (the best example is Saudi-Arabia); only Iran, Syria and its affiliates in many countries have the ideological commitment to lead the "revolutionary axis" against Israel and the US. Most of the other countries are more committed to "maintaining the status quo", which is of course not a good track but counter to Iranian interests to dominate the region in their favor. I can see no argument at all that counters the ever-present, but not seriously carried, dogma: Weaken the radicals, strenghten the moderates. And the Iranian regime is the main player on the first side.

 
Unregistered User

November 22, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Niklas Anzinger:

In my previous reply to you, I posed 2 questions to you which you have not answered.

What is the definition or understanding of the word "Reasonable"?

What is a reasonable example of the exercise of Iranian strategic autonomy?

You have not supplied any answers; instead you have replied with an incoherent collection of assertions the point of which - it seems - that Iran (and Muslims) are malevolent actors.

I do not wish to spend time to shed light on your various slanders and mis-representations here. I will, however, take 2 cases. One of them Hezbollah and the other the current strategic situation.

The relationship between the Shia of South Lebanon and modern Iran - created by the Shia Turkic tribes around early 1500 - goes back 500 years. When Israelis invaded and machine-gunned women and children, the Shia of South Lebanon ran to Iran for help.

Neither you (EU states), nor NATO, nor US, nor USSR were willing or able to do anything to protect these defenseless people who were being wantonly murdered for sports by the Israeli soldiers.

It was at that time that the Iranians moved in - and under explicit instruction from the late Mr. Khomeini - and taught and organized the Shia Arabs of South Lebanon how to fight. And it took 18 years of bitter struggle to finally kick the occupying power out of Lebanon.

To the extent that EU states harmonized their policies with those of Israel and with US - the Chief Champion of Israel - they suffered the consequences.

And what goes for Hezbollah also goes for these other assorted non-Iranian people who are now dependent on the Iranian power to maintain their existence: the Christian Armenians (who survived sieges by Azerbaijan Republic and Turkey because of Iran), the Kurds of Iraq, the Tajiks, the Hazara of Afghanistan (whose area, due to Iranian interference, is the most stable and prosperous area of Afghanistan), the Tajik of Tajikistan Republic, the Shia Arabs of Lebanon, the Shia Arabs of Iraq, and the Syrians (all sects).

Iran is now the linchpin of security structure for these people.

To the extent that EU and US are opposed to the Iranian power, they will be promising more death and more destruction to all these non-Iranians.

As I said before, US-EU policies in the Middle East only deliver Death.

On the current siege of Iran:

Please find below 3 assessments from US sources on the topic of Iran:

http://www.ifpa.org/pdf/Iran_with_Nuclear_Weapon.pdf

http://csis.org/files/publication/111116_Iran_Ch5_GulfState.pdf

And An American assessment of the siege of Iran:

http://www.brookings.edu/testimony/2011/1115_iran_policy_maloney.aspx

[Mrs. Maloney’s testimony stripped of value-judgments and rhetorical flourishes contains a realistic – in my opinion – assessment of the state of siege of Iran.

It points out to the numerous tactical successes of US-EU Axis in extending and intensifying the siege (warfare) against Iran.

It shows that the siege and the repeated threats of military action has made Iranian surrender of her nuclear capabilities impossible for any (responsible) government in Iran.

It alludes to the unhappiness of various interests in US, EU, India and elsewhere who are unhappy with the current siege warfare. These minority interests are unhappy as the siege – predicated on quick Iranian strategic surrender – denies them tangible benefits.

It recognizes that there is no realistic expectation of Iranian surrender and – due to its absence – any possibility of US-EU accommodation of a Nuclear-Ready Iran. [US-EU has invested too much diplomatic/commercial effort in this to back-track now.]

These US analysts are positing and suggesting the construction of elaborate (and expensive to create and to maintain) military and deterrence structures in the Persian Gulf and in Palestine against Iran.

Russia and China sold – at a high price – enough rope to the Americans and the Europeans to hang themselves with in the Middle East.

The United States and the European Union are now pinned-down in the Middle East. They are pinned down in Palestine and in the Persian Gulf. As Mrs. Maloney observes, there is no realistic expectation of Iranian surrender and – due to its absence – any possibility of US-EU accommodation of a Nuclear-Ready Iran.

[US-EU has invested too much diplomatic/commercial effort in this to back-track now.]

This has been a great accomplishment of Russian and Chinese diplomacy; having supported US-EU policies against Iran and helping to usher in the indefinite siege of Iran which will persist – in all appearances – for the next few decades as a semi-permanent feature of the international system.

In the meantime, the Chinese and the Russians will be consolidating and expanding their gains their influence.

And war with Iran will not alter this strategic situation.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

November 22, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr. Omid,

in my previous comment I wanted to answer your questions implicitly to give a wider picture. One is that the conflict is on an ideological level that hardly bears anymore reason, more a drive of repressive forces striving for their existence - speaking of "reasonable" has become irrational. Israel is no strategic threat to Iran, but an ideological one. I don´t know what you mean by the term "strategic autonomy", I assume it means nothing more than the capability to according to one´s political purposes. We see, the concern of the Iranian regime is neither, democracy, nor human rights - rather terrorism, destabilization of other countries and militancy.

"You have not supplied any answers; instead you have replied with an incoherent collection of assertions the point of which - it seems - that Iran (and Muslims) are malevolent actors."

I think the Iranian regime is an actor that goes counter some things I would consider as valuable for human emancipation (e.g. rights of women, gays, ethnic minorities etc.) and anyone who has an interest in a foreseeable peaceful coexistence in the region. Why do you think I point at Muslims as malevolent actors? Are you assuming the Iranian regime represents Muslim people? I don´t and I say explicitly the opposite.

Unfortunately, in history as you might interpret it, only the Western powers can do bad things. That leads to a very distorted picture as you interpret Hezbollah to be a defensive force against Israel. Hassan Nasrallah would object your claim, because Hezbollah officials and associates state permanently that they want to annihilate Israel and the Jewish people. Doesn´t sound very defensive to me.

And one sidenote: I don´t think links to your research topics are helpful in a discussion. We all here do our research and we should be able to paraphrase our suggestions and comments. Otherwise we could send each other thousands of links that are stumbling blocks for a discussion if you insist on your counterclaimant to comment on them.
 
Unregistered User

November 22, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Niklas Anzinger:

What I understand from you is that you are also a partisan of Israel.

Israel is not your country.

Now, as I said before, there is a religious war in Palestine and for Palestine.

That war is between Judaism and Islam.

It is emphatically not an ideological war.

And like all religious wars, it is now beyond Reason.

Iranians (and other Muslims) are on one side of this war (as I tried to indicate), you, the United States and a variety of the EU states are on the other.

Now with a lot of effort and a lot of money - including pressure on Israel by US and EU and help from Iran - you might succeed in bringing down this religious war to a point that it can be settled along the lines of Land-for-Peace or some such thing.

But you (US-EU) are incapable of settling this war.

Peaceful coexistence could only be achieved through the instrumentality of an international conference between Israel, Iran, US, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt; with observer status to EU, Russia, Turkey, and China.

But your governments are not interested in that approach nor do I think even capable of organizing such a conference.

It is US-EU Alliance that has taken war to the Middle East; in Iraq, in Libya, the Siege Warfare against Iran, and now contemplating war against Syria.

It is not Iran that is a threat; it is you - perhaps because your wealth and your nuclear weapons is giving you a sense of strategic impunity and omnipotence. I cannot tell.

EU-US do not stand for Peaceful Coexistence; that much is clear to me.

For in 2007 EU states could have taken the path of dialogue with Iran.

And even today, EU-US can take the path of peaceful coexistence by taking the HAMAS 99-year-long cease-fire deal with Israel.

By they (you) won't.

You are committed, ideologically, to human emancipation (e.g. rights of women, gays, ethnic minorities etc.) and anyone who has an interest in a foreseeable peaceful coexistence in the region.

Well, I (and many of us) do not share your values as you have stated them.

While there are areas of overlap, there are fundamental and irreconcilable differences between us.

What are you going to do about it: kill us all to bring into existence your Utopia?

My recommendation to you and other US-EU citizens is this: “Accept us the way we are or leave us alone.” For we will never become like you; it is an impossibility.

In regards to quoting others:

Scholars always do - I do not wish to repeat other peoples work.

If you so believe submit a thesis topic to your committee stating that you will be working on the Epistemology and will not refer to any thinker beyond Heraclitus. See if that thesis will be approved.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

November 22, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr. Omid,

I don´t feel comitted to the country I come from but only to what I think is the best thing to do for various reasons.

For what reason are then other states in the region against a nuclear armament of Iran if they were on their side in the "religious war in Palestine and for Palestine"? Most common people in those countries do not have anything to do with that issue, why should they care? It is pure ideology that is fed by the leaders of authoritarian and theocratic countries. As I said, the problem is the lack of democracy.

"While there are areas of overlap, there are fundamental and irreconcilable differences between us."

Actually, I found many people in the Muslim world who share those values with me and argue for them under life-threatening danger. I reject to make peace with lunatics at a cost to allow them maintaining their slaughterhouses and send those brave people there. Are these slaughterhouse part of an irreconcilably cultural antogonism? I don´t think so. At least in the name of the people who suffer from that very inhumane circumstances I would argue for the opposite.

I don´t think there is much of the antagonism you describe. The problem is the political leadership, not "Arab exeptionalism". Do you think it is a good thing that the Iranian regime and several other Middle Eastern are condemning Israel for everything that goes wrong in their countries? It seems to me that you accept that as a fact, not as a subject to criticize. The "We" you are stating is false and is taking innocent people hostage, you (as an abstact speaker person) or the Iranian regime (as a political entity) are not justified to do so. Let the people vote if they agree with your call and then we will see. Why not? Are you afraid that the people will not agree with you? (Yes, Hamas was voted - but what about the next vote? Democracy is about accountability for those in charge, not the simple majority principle that allows to abandon democracy itself.)

Counter to what you describe, Hamas will not engage in a peaceful dialogue - they will try only to benefit from it; why not take them by the word that they want to annihilate Israel and the Jewish people? Are you on their side, as you describe that ominous antagonism between the Western and the Muslim world? So, clearly their is no moderation between the goal to annihilate a people and the interest for peace in the region. Peace at the cost of the lifes of the Jewish people? That is basically what Ahmadinejad and other Islamist lunatics are offering. Sorry, that is not a fair call. So, no, in that case there can´t be peaceful coexistence.
 
Unregistered User

November 23, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Niklas Anzinger:

So you are a German who enjoys all the benefits of what the Federal Republik of Gwermany has to offer - including Nuclear protection of NATO - but you are not committed to her.

But you seem to be committed to Israel.

Well, shame on you not to care about Germany and good for you being a supporter of Israel.

When are you planning on joining IDF and participating in murdering Palestinians - like the Palestinian medics?

Now,: onto Iran:

As I tried to explain, the nuclear program of Iran has nothing to do with Israel.

But you do not seem to have understood my comment.

The states threatened by Iranian nuclear program are the same states that were supporting Iraq in her war of agression against us. Those elites are still in power and pursuing their own agenda against Iran.

They are fools, as the late Mr. Hussein's invasion of Kuwait in 1991 demonstrated that to them.

You say "most common people have nothing to do with these issues."

Then who does, and why are 29 Muslim states not recognizing Israel?

If you think Muslims and Arabs do not care about Palestinians, Al Quds/Jerusalem, etc. you are truly living in a dangerous fanatsy land.

For this is not ideology in the sense that you understand it.

This is religious which you do not understand - for outside of Islam nothing exists for alomist all Muslims (Arabs, Iranians, Turks, and others).

Within Islam lies urbanity, culture, civilization, law, morality, decency.

This is not an ideology that you can discard and, to at the same time, maitain your person-hood.

The Arabs would tell you, if you just ask them, that without Islam they are nothings.

Accept this as an empirical fact so you may comprehend more.

I respectfully decline to discuss items having to do with Israel that you have raised. Israel is not relevant to Iranian strategic calculus and, furthermore, is not your country.

Your emotional rhetorical repsonse in regards to Israel is rather disturbing; I might add.

Why do you care?

There are many antagonisms in this world.

Between Hindusim and Islam.

Between you, the Western Christians in their post-Christian phase, and us.

These antagonisms cannot be resolved, ameliorated, or removed.

They have to be managed.

A statesman would do so.

But as is, all threats are emanating from your side and not from us.

It is you who publish articles on bombing Iran, it is you who have laid siege to Iran, it is you who bombed Libya, it is you who are waging war in Afghanistan, it is you who invaded Iraq.

You talk a good talk of human rights, democracy, etc. but behind it is the nothing other than more war and more blood shed in my part of the world.

And it is my part of the world, not yours.


 
Paul-Robert  Lookman

November 23, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Very interesting interview with ex-Senator and former US presidential candidate Mike Gravel on RT, see http://rt.com/news/us-wars-corporations-gravel-925/ and watch the videoclip. To quote:

“Iran is neither Syria nor Lebanon. Iran is a proud nation and they have missile capabilities (not nuclear-capable) that can rain down on Tel Aviv. I can tell you: if they are attacked they would attack back. Israel is so vulnerable and so small that it would retaliate with nukes because they cannot suffer to be destroyed. Pakistan and China will join in, with the US to follow, a ready scenario for a nuclear WWIII.

The best way to solve the problem with Iran is to leave it alone to build a democracy of its own.”
 
Niklas  Anzinger

November 23, 2011

  • 2
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr. Omid,

I learned to respect an argument, whoever the person is it is coming from. The argument counts, not the person. You are attacking my person, claiming it cannot be me to raise this argument. You say maybe its "my culture", but I don´t think it applies only to some people and not to others. If you don´t want to discuss on the level of arguments, but on the level of "culture", you will indeed confuse me and we might have our misunderstandings.

The nuclear program has indeed to do with Israel, as Iranian officials claimed several times that they want to annihilate her. If we have learned something from the last century, then that anti-Semites usually tend to bring their dark fantasies to reality if they have the possibility. At least the Israeli people learned that they have to take such threats serious, you also have to consider this as a fact. And, yes, I feel very comitted to something like we have seen in the last century not to happen again, and Israel is the safeguard for that. You say they are killing Palestinians, but Palestinians are also killing Palestinians and several other Arab states did too. That by a far large number and for different reasons that the Israelis. The Israelis kill for self defense, believe it or not. Herein lies our fundamental difference in understanding the history.

"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." (Benjamin Netanjahu)

Netanjahu is usually known to take a tough stance, but as every Israeli he does not wish for anything more than peace.

Thus, Iran is threatening the existence and the very purpose of the state of Israel. If you are not aware of that, better be - because the Israelis cannot afford to make a mistake in their misfavor if it comes to its existence. Go nuclear, go against Israel - simple as that; you claim that the nuclear program is defensive, even if so, nobody can guarantee the Israelis that some lunatic occurs who pushes the red button. And the military intentions of the Iranian nuclear program are abundantly clear, so what is there not to understand from an Israeli perspective. If it was only for Iran´s self-defense and had nothing to do with Israel, why not making peace with them and cooperate on the field of security? You could not find a better partner.

Islam is everything? Well, I am here in Turkey right now and I find many Muslim people who are not religious and do not care ... I am not arguing against Islam or religion, but only for the right to chose one´s beliefs of their own behalf. Can you say that about the Bahai or the Zoroastrians in Iran? I believe most Muslims and the Kuran itself would argue that religion is chosen, not obstructed (that is what my Muslim friends told me and showed me the passages) - but I note the Middle Eastern dictators and Islamist clergy does not see it that way (that is why my friends argue that they are no good Muslims but thefts and lunatics). I see no antagonism here - if you say, there is a fundamental antagonism between Jewry, Christianity and Islam, be aware of the consequences. I don´t think you can claim to speak for most Muslims.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

November 23, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Further, you seem to get my willfully wrong. I exactly argue for not bombing Iran, if we do other things about it to prevent a military confrontation.

Why are the other states not recognizing Israel? In most of the countries you cannot express sympathy to Israel openly, the people are fed with propaganda against Israel. As I said, it is problem of lack of democracy. Among several other reasons ... but all of them to be criticised not be taken for granted. Remember, Jews were once treated better in the Muslim world than in Christian countries.
 
Unregistered User

November 23, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Paul-Robert Lookman,:

The senator is wrong.

Israelis are supreme realists; they will not attack Iran, they want to get US to attack Iran.

WWIII will start when Russia begins the re-supply of Iran.

The best way to stop WWIII is to organize a Concert of Middle East - like Europe after Congress of Vienna.

 
Unregistered User

November 23, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Niklas Anzinger:

I was not attacking your person.

I, however, found it irritating to converse with a person who has - based on his own statement - dubious commitment to the country of his birth and citizenship, an, to be, a partisan of another state.

I find that quite foolish.

Now, the last time Iran started a war was in 1828, if my memory serves me.

None of Iran's anatagonists may claim anything like that.

I respectfully decline to discuss Israel with you. They have nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them.

Israel is not your country.

In regards to Islam & its role in Muslim polities; I have stated what I believe to be a fundamental Truth of Muslim polities.

You can accept that Truth or you can deny it.

The antagonisms are clear to me.

For why else is there a war in which Muslim, Jews, and Christains are fighting one another?
 
Unregistered User

November 23, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Niklas Anzinger:

Yes Mr. Azinger; very quickly you move from an anti-war position to a siege Warfare position.

You dismiss our security concerns while yourself is living under the nuclear protection of NATO.

And you are such a partisan of Israel - which is not your country - that the entire Iranian issue, for your, revolves Israel.

Now please understand this: Jews are living a fanatsy project in Palestine.

As long as they insist on claiming sovereignity over Jerusalem none of these Mulsim states will sign a Peace deal with them.

As long a the issue of Palestinian refugees and the West Bank is not disposed of, there will be no peace of recognitiion of Israel.

Sine the Israelis are not going to concede on any of these points - IDF killed Rabin to prevent it - the war in and for Palestine will go on.

We have entered the age of Mass Politics among Musliim polities with Palestine being an emotionally charged cause for Muslims.

That is just the way the world is.

 
Paul-Robert  Lookman

November 23, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Shaban Bozorg Omid:

The senator could be wrong, you could be right. I like the last line the most: “The best way to solve the problem with Iran is to leave it alone to build a democracy of its own.” That coincides with the fifth policy option Suzanne Maloney mentioned in the House Subcommittee:

“… Washington should rethink the universe of possibilities for advancing political change within Iran. The uncomfortable truth is that the Obama administration got it mostly right with its low-key response to the emergence of a powerful indigenous Iranian opposition in June 2009. Not even the most ardent Iranian democratic activist can make a persuasive argument that more forceful American rhetoric or a closer embrace of the Green Movement at the time would have facilitated a different outcome, and it remains profoundly unclear whether and how U.S. support would advance the aim of political change in Iran.”

Finally, don’t underestimate the tremendous US arms sales to its Persian Gulf allies, the aim of which seems to be to “provoke Iran to respond by some inadequate moves, which would enable the Americans to justify subsequent violence and military force,” see http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27731. With no hot line between Wasshington and Tehran, the slightest "misunderstanding" can trigger a direct military confrontation, with unheard consequences.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

November 23, 2011

  • 0
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr. Omid,

at this point it is getting ridiculous. Our readers here will notice you driving into conspiracy theories claiming the IDF killed Itzhak Rabin.

The other Arab countries are not interested in the Palestinian people, in Lebanon they are held in refuge camps without any political rights. In Jordan many Palestinians were killed in the "Black September". The oil-rich states´ aid support for the Palestinians is a joke, comparing to the aid delivery of US/EU and Israel itself (including free medical treatment for thousands of Palestinians). It is a problem of the despotic rulership in these states using Israel as an excuse for their own shortcomings feeding the people with propaganda and conspiracy theories. The Palestinians are as long a concern for them as they serve as the "victim" scapegoating Israel. None of these states intervened or raised their voice when it came to killings, torture and human shielding in tensions between Fatah and Hamas. This also applies to hypocritic Western NGOs and governments.

You refuse to talk about Israel, but you always talk implicitly of the inner connection of these issues.

You were indeed attacking my person, because you said shame on me that I do not identify with Germany and Israel is none of my concern. As if an argument coming from different persons (a German) has to be judged differently (e.g. an Israeli). Sorry, you won´t change my deepest conviction that an argument is to be judged on its own, regardless of the claimant. From your perspective, how could you judge when what "your country" is doing, is wrong? Can they do everything and you have to obey no matter what? Philosophically, I see this as the age-old identification of truth and authority. Thus, the Muslim people I met who argue for human rights and for peaceful coexistence must be traitors from your point of view, because Muslims have to be obliged to the cause of the Palestinians? What a hypocrisy ... What are you gonna do with the traitors then? Well, a rhetorical question, I guess, because I know what the despots are doing to them - friends of mine are in prison for raising concerns about the situation of political rights and freedom.

Fortunately, these people exist and if there is a better future, they will be in charge - at this point there will be peaceful coexistence with Israel.
 
Unregistered User

November 23, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Paul-Robert Lookman:

The aim of arms sales by US is not to provoke Iran; she cannot be provoked.

Nor are these arms sales are going to frighten Iran.

There is a body of water that separate Iran and the Arabs - it offers protection to both.

And the control of skies that the latest US aeroplanes offers to these states is irrelevant to an aggressive war against Iran - they do not have the manpower nor the land forces structure nor the landing craft for such wars.

The aims are 2 folds: maintaining the American capacity to manufacture arms; the coming decade of defense cuts in US makes this a necessity.

Secondarily, these weapons could be considered as pre-positioned materiale for when US-EU decide to go to war with Iran.

In regards to the "Democratic Iran" theory; it is just silly.

I suppose that behind it stands the so-called Democratic Peace theory.

I do not subscribe to it.

The siege warfare against Iran shows no sign of ending; US-EU will not leave Iran alone.

Their aim - in my opinion, still stands: destruction of independent Iranian power by any means necessary.

My hope, as an Iranian, is that Iran will break substantially out of that siege in less than a decade.
 
Unregistered User

November 23, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Niklas Anzinger:

This thread was started by an opinion about war with Iran.

In wars, people die.

In this particular case, Iranians would do the dying and Israelis, Americans, and Europeans will not.

You have no skin in this game.

Your leaders' aim, in my opinion, is assertion of control over Western Asia.

The existence of independent Iranian power is making that assertion of power impossible to maintain.


When US destroyed Ba'athist Iraq, she caused the growth of Irani (Shia) power. The millenial Shia project for political power in Mesopotamia was finally realized and the Shia Vatican (the Qum-Najaf Axis) claimed the strategic and religious spoils.

The US blunder necessitated now the elimination of this nascent Shia/Iranian power.

Thus the siege warfare against Iran and the ultimate destruction of independent Iranian power becoming the goal of US-EU policy makers.

Israel is irrelevant to this calculus.

 
Bernhard  Lucke

December 7, 2011

  • 1
  •  
  •  
  • No rating possible
  • No rating possible
I like this comment! What's this?
Mr. Anzinger, as a fellow German working since quite a time in the Near East, I must say that the points made by Mr. Omid are very valid, at least from an Iranian point of view.

I see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict more complex than Mr. Omid, but as a neutral third party, we should embark on the narratives of both sides. This is a precondition if you want to stay neutral, and neutrality is precondition if you really want to help the conflicting parties to negotiate peace.

Unfortunately, we in the West see Islam often as a threat, and too many people believe in the story of evil Iran waiting to terrorise the world until it accepts Islam or Israel is destroyed (and to be honest, our media, especially in Germany, are painting a very blurred and incomplete image). These are legends which have their roots in the historical conflicts with Muslims, and the more recent geo-political developments where the Iranian revolution was very detrimental to the interests of the former colonial powers.

Apart from that, Iranians are like you and me. There is no point in demonising the country or its government, at least not in comparison to the regimes that cooperate well with the West. I have lived some time in Amman and I can well imagine how it would feel to live in Teheran, and I'm afraid that we are entering a period of fear. One may say that the struggle for global dominance and the competition for resources got tougher, and much more risky. Reviewing how it must feel to live under the constant threat of attack by the U.S. or Israel, I would conclude that we are actually forcing Iran to develop a nuclear deterrent, at least creating an atmosphere where perhaps only nuclear deterrence can prevent war.

We in the West are making a capital mistake if we allow the existential fears of Israel to govern our foreign policy. In this context, the US failed to broker peace in the Near East because they were never neutral (see above). We must not embark on only one narrative: not only will this render us completely unable to help negotiate peace, it will also make us fight the war of one of the sides, and by doing so, we may trigger a transformation of the current siltent resource competition into another world-war scenario.

If we Germans should know one thing, finally and for sure, then that war is not a legitimate continuation of policy. We should never ever forget this and act accordingly.
 

Commenting has been deactivated in the archive. We appreciate your comments on our more recent articles at atlantic-community.org


Community

You are in the archive of all articles published on atlantic-community.org from 2007 to 2012. To read the latest articles from our open think tank and network with community members, please go to our new website