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August 25, 2011 |  29 comments |  Print  Your Opinion  

CGA at NYU Ethnic Conflicts Learning Community

Nonviolent Tactics Could Topple Regime in Iran

CGA at NYU Ethnic Conflicts Learning Community : Nonviolent movements have toppled autocrats from Serbia to Egypt, and these tactics could also work in Iran. Protestors should exploit internal government divisions and leverage their youth and the strength of women to bring down this oppressive regime.

The MENA uprisings of this year have brought Otpor!, the nonviolent youth-led movement that overthrew Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic, back into the spotlight, with many drawing comparisons to Egypt’s April 6 Youth Movement. Indeed, images of the iconic black flag and white clenched fist, so visible in Serbia in 2000, were raised throughout Tahrir Square this year as protesters successfully organized to unseat the regime of President Hosni Mubarak.

The Otpor! movement derived many of its tactics from Boston academic Gene Sharp, the man now known as the godfather of nonviolent resistance. The Egyptians adopted several of these, including nonviolent response to violent crackdown, mockery, and identifying how to effectively infiltrate the pillars of power. Most notably, they successfully engaged the army, which ultimately refused to crackdown on the demonstrators.

Interestingly, however, we have seen little commentary on the use of Otpor! tactics by the Green Movement in Iran. This is certainly not because organizers there were unfamiliar with the movement or didn’t feel that it was applicable to them. Quite the contrary – Iranian organizers met with Otpor! veterans to gain insight into their tactics. The primary difference here is political climate.

The Milosevic and Mubarak regimes were undeniably reprehensible (genocide and ethnic cleansing certainly don’t engender respect). But they simply didn’t respond to their opposition movements in the same way that Iran did. Iranian protesters were brutalized, murdered, raped, and tortured. While this took place in Serbia and Egypt as well, it was nowhere near as widespread and systematic as it was in Iran. The Ahmadinejad regime and the Revolutionary Guard were determined to put a cruel end to the demonstrations.

So, can Otpor! tactics actually work in Iran, given this commitment to violent repression?

Let’s explore the pessimistic view first: it is unlikely that widespread protests and mass demonstrations in Iran will work in the same way that they did Serbia and Egypt, for the above-mentioned reasons. There is no reason to believe that the Revolutionary Guard will rein in its violence against the protesters, and in order to carry out a sustained demonstration, ordinary Iranians would have to be willing to face down bullets, torture chambers and rapists for an untold amount of time. This is obviously not an attractive option. It’s hard to imagine more people on the streets of Tehran than we saw in 2009, and yet the regime was able to defeat them.

On the other hand, however, while Sharp’s tactics were broadly developed, they were not meant to be a one-size-fits-all prescription for demonstrators across the globe. Outside of mass demonstrations, Sharp also recommends identifying and exploiting a regime’s weaknesses to bring about its downfall.

Given Ahmadinejad’s penchant for violent suppression, the following are several potential weaknesses that protesters might exploit:

  1. The internal power struggle between Ahmadinejad and Supreme Leader Khamenei is preventing the regime from forming a united front. As a result, policy development has proven difficult, and any policy created leaves a large fraction of government officials dissatisfied and at times infuriated. If effectively leveraged, this could leave the door for some officials to take a more lenient approach in responding to a grassroots uprising.

  2. More than 60% of the Iranian population is under the age of 30. Ultimately, the regime will be forced to find a way to appease this demographic, as well as the growing unemployment rate plaguing them (now at nearly 15% overall).

  3. Scientific advancement is a central focus of the regime. Today, more than 65% of Iranians in university today are women, ultimately placing them in a stronger position to demand more rights. Given that women will be the majority of the population poised to make developments in this area, the regime will have to decide how to balance their desire to suppress with the necessity of advancement.

  4. Finally, the regime strongly relies on the support of those receiving government assistance to provide basic needs. These subsidies have largely ceased, eroding support among this once reliable base. 

While the Ahmadinejad regime was successful in terrorizing its opposition into submission in 2009, it will be hard pressed to silence the voices of a movement committed to change, particularly given should movement leaders work to exploit these weaknesses. Undoubtedly, there are many working to expose them as we write and it’s a safe (and hopeful) bet that we haven’t heard the last of the Green Movement.

The CGA at NYU ethnic conflicts learning community is part of the MSGA Program in the Center for Global Affairs at New York University, taught by Professor Colette Mazzucelli, who is a member of atlantic-community.org.

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Unregistered User

August 25, 2011

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Dr. Mazzucelli, we have had some amazing conversations regarding these very statistics that could lead to potential regime change- or at the very least, reform.

While there remains similarities between Iran leadership and the tyrannical leadership of Milosevic, Mubarak (and now Qaddafi) there remains key structural differences between their governments and the one in Iran that has lead to their collapse.

External influences:
- Milosevic was situated in Europe surrounded by enough European powers in addition to the United States that could and did in fact that attempt to influence and keep the regime's brutality in check, or to face severe consequences.
-Mubarak and Qaddafi have similar stories only over varying degrees of time. Mubarak was a dictator that kept his people in check, but because of the strategic relationship with the United States and the flow of immigration of Egyptians to the United States the people of Egypt were exposed to a lifestyle that they began to demand for themselves. However, Qaddafi over the last 3-4 years has improved relations with the United States dramatically. In that time he has made concessions that has improved the flow of communication in his nation away from centralized, and government controlled lines, to third parties and access to satellite communication. Just like Mubarak in Egypt, Qaddafi was forced to address newly created expectations against the promises his regime has made and the regime's inability to execute those promises. Coupled with the fact that NATO and the United Nations both exerted huge amounts of external influence over Libya and in the case of NATO they assisted militarily over the Qaddafi regime.

Compare this directly with Iran and you will find that the government has employed a method of import substitution in their communications sector, where it is completely governmentally administered and are therefore able to shut down external communications in a way that the previously mentioned dictators could not do. Also, while the government has talked about fixing the unemployment rate they still have the ability to buy off the necessary votes in order to win at least the majority.

Government structure:
Milosevic, Qaddafi, and Mubarak all suffered from similar plagues of government structure, they were clearly dictatorships regardless of all attempts to disguise their regimes as pseudo democracies.

Iran, no matter how much we want to say it is not a democracy, has 1 legitimate branch of government that is elected democratically, even though the pool of challengers is selected by the religious establishment. Iran can get away with this limitation because there is a popular consensus that Iran's national identity is tied with Shiism being part and parcel of the government structure. Unless there is a radical change in the Iranian population's thinking about the separation of the religious institutions and the political and governmental institutions we will not see a change in Iran's regime. I'm hard pressed to put the Iranian struggles with the rest of theater revolutions, however their struggles are one in the same. One of the motives for the Arab revolutions is representation and without actual representation I personally believe that Iran cannot reform because every movement needs a vocal party that can continuously get out the opposition party's message and there is no such ability in Iran currently. (this is illustrated through Syria because Syria's opposition party is having a hard time communicating in order to organize their one resistance.)

I look forward to hearing reading your response Dr. Mazzucelli
 
Unregistered User

August 25, 2011

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"Theater revolutions" was meant to be "the Arab revolutions"
 
Niklas  Anzinger

August 28, 2011

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Dear Prof. Mazzucelli,

I very much appreciate your brilliant article and I can largely agree with your arguments. Though, I am very surprised by the track of your article, because from our last conversation I thought we were on totally different tracks regarding my criticism of the Iranian regime. Maybe I was wrong, but I had the impression that encouraging dissent with a clear perspective of abandoning the autocratic system was not an option from your point of view. After the Arab Spring this option fortunately reached the minds of many policymakers and politicians, I guess.

I will most certainly keep an eye on the scientific outcome of CGA..

best

Niklas
 
Nabi  Sonboli

August 29, 2011

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Prof. Colette Mazzucelli
You have rightly mentioned about dictators supported by the US and the EU in the MENA. Unfortunately your analysis about Iran is based on simplistic media clichés. The situation on the ground is much different:
First, there is no dictatorship and no dichotomy of “dictator and opposition” like Egypt and Libya to support one against the other. Many of those who believe in change and support it are inside the system or has come from inside. Karubi, Musavi, Khatami and Hashemi as the main leaders and supporters of reform all have come from inside the system and still maintain strong linkages with the system. They do not support revolution.
Second, the political system is diversified and there are many centers of power. They check and balance each other. Even the green movement is mostly supported from inside the system. Those who are inside naturally do not look for changing the system.
Third, the majority of those who are not satisfied with current situation are reformist not revolutionary. During the past three decades a gradual and incremental reform process has taken place in Iran and this natural process still continues.
Forth, Iranian election system has kept the system open to change and reform. In any election, if you want to be elected you have to listen to at least parts of the demands of your constituencies. Municipalities, parliamentarians and president are elected directly the religious leader is elected indirectly by the people. It has prevented the system from facing a big challenge. During the next two years we will have three elections: Parliament, municipalities and presidential. Naturally many changes will follow. There were not such a system in Egypt and Libya.
Fifth, by now we have had just Arab Revolutions. As someone who has lived almost all his life after Iranian revolution, I have to say that, revolution is the easiest part to achieve democracy and development. Sustainable democracy needs sustainable economic and many experienced democratic leaders. It takes at least 10 years before they reach to the point that Iran is now.
Six, sustainable democracy and development will never happen in a very instable region. MENA environment has been securitized for more than 50 years and every few yeas global powers have lunched a war in there. During the past 10 years global powers intervention in the region has increased. They look for oil, gas, selling weapons, and controlling strategic locations. These are the main obstacles for sustainable democracy and development. If rivalry and intervention by global powers continue in the region, failed dictators will be replaced by failed revolutions and democracies, with more potential for expansion of extremism. What I recommend is:
1- Forget about media clichés and have a trip to Iran and the region and try to talk with the people with different background; Each person has one vote in emerging democracies, too;
2- Let the people find their way. They can make democracy by themselves. One of the main reasons behind falling dictators in the region is the US and EU inability to keep them in power;
3- If EU and the US are sincere, It’s better that they contribute to education and sustainable economic development in the region. Political and military interventions, sanctions and isolation deteriorate the situation and undermine democracy;
4- Stop double-standard behaviors and hypocrisy; “Two hundred sayings are not equal with half a deed”.
Tags: | Iran | US | Arab Spring | ME | democracy promotion |
 
Niklas  Anzinger

August 29, 2011

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Mr. Sonboli,

Iran is the most virulent interventionist in the region, see latest support for Assad the quell the Syrian opposition by excessive use of force, respectively financial and logistical supply for terrorist cells from all over the Middle East, through many African countries and even Latin America. Of course, sabotaging the Western presence in Iraq and Afghanistan gets justified by the linkage of illegitimate Western interventionism, but it is - of course - pure propaganda to state superior Iranian responsibility for other countries in the region. As you can not only see in Bahrain and Iraq, Iran enforces explicitly Shiite powers to gain influence or advantages them in violent struggles in their favor. After all, many terrorist attempts, e.g. in Argentinia and many European countries, have Iranian fingerprints. Respectively, the violent crackdown of oppositional riots in domestic and on and on ...

You mention some points that are clear to every political analyst, and nobody even claims them. We are pretty informed about the diversity of the Green Movement and regime-links of some of their figures (nevertheless I think the protests went beyond the figures of the old establishment).

After all, all these points seem somewhat odd to discuss from my perspective. President Ahmadinejads statements about Israel are only annoying by redundance, as are the political analysts left apologizing this genocidal language.

"Iran believes that whoever is for humanity should also be for eradicating the Zionist regime (Israel) as symbol of suppression and discrimination."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/ahmadinejad-iran-is-determi...

If it was more of people to understand, I would say this language alone justifies a clear cut in legitimizing this anti-Semite regime. Whoever denies the holocaust is willing to repeat it; there should be no place in the world of the future for those figures constituting the Islamic Republic with a hate-ideology that caused eminent pain and deaths. Nor is this ideology adequate to the wishes and hopes of the young generation of the future. Therefore, if I may quote a very good movie, "this aggression will not stand" (The Dude) in the long term and I am convinced that the brave Iranian people on the streets can topple the regime.
 
Nabi  Sonboli

August 30, 2011

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Unfortunately freedom of expression has been turned into freedom of deception. That’s why so many people everyday are misled about others. If you have any documents present them. Haaretz is a misleading machine like many others around the world.
With regard to anti-Semitism in Iran, that’s totally wrong. First, Muslims believe in all Prophets, so they are Jew, Christen and Muslim. Islam is an open religion that includes other religions not excludes them. If other religions are also open to different belief systems why they exclude them? Second, Iranian has never been anti-Semitic, neither the people nor the state. It was Iranians that freed the Jews that were slave in Babel. And they have been living in Iran for centuries. It is not possible to do so in an anti-Semitic societies like European ones. Historically, Jews have had much less problem in Iran than Europe. Second, Islamic republic has recognized the Jews as a religious minority. 20000 Jews are living in Iran and have one MP while approximately every 2500000 Muslims have one MP. It means that voting power of the Jews are 10 times more than Muslims. This is the meaning of anti-semanticism in Iranian society and political system.

With regard to Iranian Position toward Israel I have one question?
A group has captured power in a territory by foreign support. Expelled millions of people from their homes; killed thousands of them; imprisoned thousands of others for decades; has created a big prison for the rest by making walls and imposing sanctions; and repeatedly has turned into terrorism against its neighboring countries etc.
What do you think about such a regime? Do you think it is legitimate and have the right to continue its atrocities or should be replaced by a legitamate one through referendum with participation of all those who are living there, regardless of their religion and ethnicity?

 
Nabi  Sonboli

August 30, 2011

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the last comment is for Mr. Anzinger
 
Niklas  Anzinger

August 30, 2011

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Mr. Sonboli, I guess I am so deeply entrenched with Zionist propaganda that all quotes I could bring of representatives of the Iranian establishment towards Israel, or Khomenei´s teachings about Jewry are faked. Besides, you are wrestling with a straw man, I never said Iranians or Muslims are anti-Semitic. Quite the opposite, I genuinely belief majority of Iranians are fed up with anti-Israel propaganda and life a normal life, not an Islamic revelation leading through Jerusalem.

What about holocaust denial, conferences "A world without Zionism" and demonization of Israel? As I said, those who deny the holocaust want to repeat it. I believe this hate ideology is linked to the Islamic Revolution, as in terms of a modern ideology amalgated with elements of European totalitarian ideology, especially anti-Semitism, not to the Iranian people or an "essence" of Islam. As wrong it is to conclude from anti-Jewish passages in Islamic teaching (which unrevocably exist!) to modern Islamic anti-Semitism (honestly, in which way is the Hamas Charta not anti-Semitic?), it is also the other way round from the absence of modern anti-Semitic terms in traditional Islamic teaching to conclude that Muslims can´t be anti-Semitic. Seriously, what a flawed discussion is this?

The misperceptions about Israel are part of the subject I am talking about. Nobody can be an anti-Semite in terms of the last century, it would be too obvious and is too discredited, but one can say that he has nothing against Jews, but against Zionists. Even if the people believe that themselves, this is one of the same phenomenon, and your sayings about the Jewish state of Israel lead into that very same direction. If it would be true what you are saying, of course it was not legitimate and one would have had to intervene against these atrocities. You see, you are looking for a legitimization for new crimes against Jews, because what you say about Israel is not true. It is changing victim and perpetrator.

I believe at this point there is not much room for further discussions, because to persuade one another from their arguments we would have to teach history lessons to each other.

Nevertheless I think there are not many people left with open ears for your apologies of a system of repression, what with all due respect, Mr. Sonboli, I think is the very purpose of your comments here. Too much happened lately, nobody can deny the atrocities against the Iranian people by the regime and their military intentions.
 
Colette Grace Mazzucelli

August 30, 2011

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Hello George,

As I mentioned to you on Facebook, this commentary was authored by members of the ethnic conflicts learning community, which is my responsibility to teach in the Center for Global Affairs at New York University. This summer's learning community debated a number of cases in ethnic conflict with a particular focus on the role of civil society.

I agree with you about the Iranian government's control of the communications sector. This argument speaks to the analysis made in The Net Delusion by Evgeny Morozov. On the other hand, we are witnessing the extent to which young populations that are technologically proficient can and do locate ways around the monopoly of the state in key sectors like communications. This was the essence of Otpor! as a popular movement: its decentralized, youthful nature, which the Milosevic regime could not control.

My sense, George, is that what is happening in Syria is key to watch in terms of potential impact in the region and in Iran. The jury is still out on what we may expect in the months and years ahead without discounting the structural arguments you make, which are important to recognize.

It may be quite some time before the Opposition in Iran finds its expression through a vocal party. Yet, Iran is a unique case in many ways; therefore, it is not likely to conform to what outsiders expect is needed in order for change to occur. In time, the Iranians will find their own way to the reforms the people seek led by the almost 70 percent of the population that is under 30 years of age. The future of Iran culturally, economically, socially, legally, and politically is for the Iranians living in the country to decide.

These are some of my initial thoughts. I will contribute further in the days ahead. It is important to engage in constructive debate about this critical topic and about a country that is increasingly significant in the region and in the world today.

I trust the members of the ethnic conflicts learning community will add their comments as well.

All the very best, George, Professor Colette Mazzucelli
Tags: | Iran |
 
Colette Grace Mazzucelli

August 30, 2011

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Hello Niklas,

Thank you for your initial comments. This article written by members of the ethnic conflicts learning community this summer expresses the views of the group. It is contributed to spark debate and stimulate engagement on a most important topic. I am sure the members will appreciate your thoughts as you contribute to this forum. Please do keep an eye out for additional commentaries from the CGA at NYU learning communities.

All the best, Professor Colette Mazzucelli
 
Colette Grace Mazzucelli

August 30, 2011

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Mr. Sonboli,

Thank you for your comments. I am glad we have this chance to dialogue again. We are beginning through the use of the Facebook groups function to include participants from Tehran in our learning communities. This helps us learn together as we dialogue about the context in Iran. I agree with you that reform in Iran must be promoted by the Iranians who live in country. It is their choice as to how change proceeds in order to bring the economic improvements that are needed for the majority of the population. The change brought about in Serbia through Otpor! was achieved from inside the country through a young popular movement there without any Western intervention. This op-ed is focused on an Iran for the Iranians. We agree that many young people are increasingly reformist-oriented. We are also in agreement that it is necessary to look to the future in terms of change in Iran. Candidly, it is not clear what is going to happen in future elections as the percentage of the population under the age of 30 continues to increase. Also less transparent is what is next in terms of a successor to the Supreme Leader. What is evident is that no external intervention can bring either constructive reform or political change to Iran. The responsibility of the reformists is theirs alone to realize for the good of the country and its people in their daily lives. I appreciate the chance to exchange viewpoints. Someday I do hope to visit Iran as one of my closest friends for many years is Persian.

All the best and sincere regards from New York, Professor Colette Mazzucelli
 
Felix F. Seidler

August 30, 2011

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Mr. Sonboli, I have two questions for you.

How do you think would Iran´s current regime and the Revolutionary Guard react if protests like in Egypt or Syria rise in Iran? Would they let the people march and topple the regime or would they shout them down as in 2009?

I highly value your answer.
Best regards,
F. Seidler
 
Colette Grace Mazzucelli

August 31, 2011

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Dear Colleagues,

As the posts continue to appear for this commentary authored by the CGA at NYU ethnic conflicts learning community with questions being raised, particularly for Mr. Sonboli in Tehran, I reference an online resource edited by colleague Robin Wright, http://iranprimer.usip.org/

As I understand, updates are continuously added to The Iran Primer website as events in country occur.

All the best and greetings from New York, Professor Colette Mazzucelli
Tags: | Iran |
 
Unregistered User

September 1, 2011

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The west is waging war against Iran.
Psychological war of disinformation for last 10++ years.
Economic war for last few years.
Military war...??
 
Nabi  Sonboli

September 1, 2011

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Mr. Anzinger
Regarding the history, what I know is that first Iranian liberated Jews in Babel; then Muslims freed them in Jerusalem when Romans were suppressing them and during the first half of the 20th century Palestinians accepted them when they could not live in Europe. But during the past 50 years they have been busy with appreciating their liberators by humiliating them, lunching war against them and threatening them with nuclear weapons. Those who have committed crime and supported the criminals need to apologize.
I think New Middle East is not a safe heaven for Zionism. They are a small minority, 5 million among 1.5 billion. To live in the region they should accept their real status and respect their neighbor’s rights. They cannot impose their will on the majority.

 
Nabi  Sonboli

September 1, 2011

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Mr. Seidler
I think I have already answered to your question. The system and even the RG are diversified and their will be different behaviors. Different political groups have their own supporters in the society. I’m sure you have recently witnessed the behaviors of Police in democratic regimes like UK, Greece, Italy… I hope Iranian police and RG behave better than them.
Unfortunately “soft dictatorship regimes” mislead the people. They call themselves open and democratic but are not even ready to publish a paper with different point of view. “Freedom of our expression” and “Free election for our representatives” exists every where.
Tags: | Feedom | democracy | Soft dictarorship |
 
George  Dekermenji

September 2, 2011

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Mr. Sonbali, I'm a student of the Middle East History in addition to economic development and I find many of your assumptions about spreading democracy as being part and parcel of the solution to bring democracy to the Middle East to be interesting in theory but poorly constructed in the case of this dialogue.

"Fifth, by now we have had just Arab Revolutions. As someone who has lived almost all his life after Iranian revolution, I have to say that, revolution is the easiest part to achieve democracy and development. Sustainable democracy needs sustainable economic and many experienced democratic leaders. It takes at least 10 years before they reach to the point that Iran is now."

Let us parse out your statement, beginning with your argument that "revolution is the easiest part to achieve democracy and development." I would argue that revolution, rising out of the regimes that we have discussed is incredibly difficult to organize and implement successfully. So let us first talk about one of a few cases of successful revolutions beginning with that of the Iranian Revolution of 1979. I do not know the extent to which the Shah's Iran is taught in Iran but it is nonetheless important to discuss some limited background on the regime, and please feel free to correct me if any of my assumptions or points prove to be incorrect.

First the regime's structure was clearly a top down dictatorship. The Shah exercised limitless power over Iran, using the nation as his personal bank account, promising reforms and never delivering, putting significant sums of money into the American weaponry rather than modernizing the nation, and over funding his largely bloated Security forces.

Secondly, the Shah's brutality of the regime was on par if not greater than any of the dictatorial regimes we have discussed, Milosevic, Mubarak, Qaddafi, or Assad. His strength was largely generated from his heavy employment of police and other security forces, which resembled Saddam's Iraq (Saddam employed roughly 1security/police personnel to every 17 people in Iraq).

The fact that the revolution was able to gain momentum despite the odds against the revolutionary were quite substantial and then to actually be able to over throw the Shah, was in and of itself a million to one probability. Regardless of what people want to say, I believe that many Iranians should largely credit the external pressure exerted not by the United States, but more specifically, Jimmy Carter in his attempts to keep the Shah from brutally suppressing the Revolution because he certainly had sufficient resources to be able to quell the revolution by any means necessary.

Let us next parse out the claim that "Sustainable democracy needs sustainable economic and many experienced democratic leaders." I'm assuming you mean sustainable economic growth.

I want to address the second claim of "experienced democratic leaders." But democracy is not a form of governance that can implemented from a top down model. Coming from a region like the Middle East (My Mother is from Iraq and my father from Syria) I think that we as "Middle Easterners" or more correctly "Descendants of dictatorial Regimes" think that democracy can inherently be implemented through a top down model. The study of democracy is inherently one of the general population taking on the responsibility to govern. The Middle East and North Africa are currently going through this phase of civic responsibility leading the trend for the implementation of democracy through the Arab Spring.

Now, when does "Sustainable" "Economic Growth come into place in the implementation of democracy? It's certainly not in the initial phases of democratic implementation. Economic growth comes out of the market forces that are backed by the political stability of the nation they operate within. Realistically, I would challenge the notion that sustainable economic growth could ever arise from dictatorial regimes because those economies can only grow so far through domestic growth. Sustainable economic growth must occur with access to international markets and new sources of financing, new import and export goods and along with that inherently comes exposure to new lifestyles and ways of thinking that may or may not disrupt the regime. That is the reason why dictatorial regimes general remain largely isolationist in comparison to their "democratic" counterparts. Economic growth is what is needed to sustain a democracy AFTER democratic implementation, and and the population has accepted the rule of the majority.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

September 2, 2011

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Mr. Sonboli,

I cannot help myself finding your historical views odd, not only contentwise, also argumentatively. As I said, history restores no model how to live today, there is no Israeli who has been freed by the Iranians today, instead 7 million who are threatened by your lunatic leaders.

Unfortunately for you, the Israelis are there to stay and they have at least my full support but hopefully also of the Western public as the acknowledgement about the brutal Iranian dictatorship and viral aggressive intentions are growing - besides all the diversities in the Iranian public sphere, behind whom you want to hide these. If you think the Zionists should leave, given that they will not do so voluntarily, you support measures directed at ending their presence, as the leadership of the Islamic Republic does. I assume you are in full knowledge of that and I want to highlight to all the other members of AC that you do - of course indirectly and sophisticated for a Western audience - support the attempt to terminate the presence of the Jewish state in the Middle East.

This option is not tolerable from my perspective and though you are of course entitled to your opinion, I refuse to make this the subject of a rational debate. Israel's right to exist is intangible! I hope the other members of AC agree with on that very paradigm, because I am out of this debate at this point.
 
Nabi  Sonboli

September 2, 2011

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Dear Mr. Dekermenji
Thank you very much for your comment. this debate has gone too long.
1.Regarding Carter pressure, many believe in that. However, if you follow later developments, you see that the US could not keep Shah on power and they thought about Plan B and Plan C; diversion of the revolution and military coup. That’s what right now is happening in some Arab countries.
2.Regarding democratic leaders, I do not mean top down. To lead a society you need so many people in different fields of civil society and government. Lack of democratic experiences causes many problems, especially when revolutionary leaders come from different ideological backgrounds. It’s just enough to compare position of different political groups in MENA countries with those of different parties in the US, Germany, Japan, etc. While in MENA there are many parties with totally different ideals, in developed countries there are few parties with few essential different opinions and mostly with technical differences
 
Nabi  Sonboli

September 2, 2011

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Dear Niklas
Completely the opposite. They are following a self-destructive way. Their main enemies are not Arabs or Iranians, but their misperceptions and misbehaviors. Respecting their neighbor’s rights is the best way that let them live in peace in the region.
Your enemies are not always those who oppose you but sometimes those who support you to make more mistakes. In Islam it is said that your brother like a mirror shows your weaknesses.
Israel, EU and the US have lost thier postion during the last decade mainly becouse of thier own mistakes.
 
Bernhard  Lucke

September 4, 2011

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In enjoyed very much this discussion here and would like to thank especially Nabi Sonboli for his contributions. His point of view might be uncommon for many westerners as it contradicts much of what is published in our media, but I believe some of his arguments are very valid.

The world is not black and white and there are many truths. As a baseline, I agree with Nabi Sonboli that western powers lost both influence and legitimacy in the Middle East region. The messianic pretence of western politics coupled with two blind eyes to corruption and injustice if the regimes were just doing what we wanted, and our far too easy willingness to accept violence as a means of politics could only harvest disastrous results.

I have never been personally to Iran, but know other countries in the region very well, and heard much about Iran from colleauges who were there personally. As with other topics (Iraq, Afghanistan), I conclude that we in the west afford a dangerously simple view of the region, a view that is largely based on prejudice against the "evils of Islam".

We should be very thankful to Nabi Sonboli for sharing his view in this forum - I believe it must be a very dissatisfying experience to be put in the corner of the "genocidists", "Islamists", and "Israel-destroyers", but only if more people sharing his point of view contribute to discussions we might open up to see more shades of grey in the political scence, and to get a little further away from war-mongering and simplification.

I personally count Iraq and Afghanistan as major defeats of the west, and the current re-shuffling of power in the Arab world will very likely result in further diminishing western influence. If we are afraid of Iran, we should approach them in direct talks on eye level - otherwise I don't think there is much to be gained.
 
Colette Grace Mazzucelli

September 5, 2011

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You have underlined the purpose of this commentary, Dr. Lucke, in so far as a main objective in the points made is to encourage an exchange of views that gets beyond media simplifications and mass stereotypes. As the Arab Spring continues to evolve, we must consider the significance of the changes taking place in the Middle Eastern countries for the western nations as well as think constructively about the diplomatic initiatives those actors external to the region may choose to take, particularly as the meetings of the United Nations General Assembly open in a few weeks time and the question of Palestine is raised. Thank you for your comments. Sincere regards, Professor Colette Mazzucelli
Tags: | Iran |
 
George  Dekermenji

September 7, 2011

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Dr. Lucke, it is not my belief that anyone here is attempting to undermine the points that Mr. Sonboli is making. I think it is a legitimate discussion that is exposing the thinking and alternative view points to create a much more diverse understanding of the sides of the conflict. I know I am greatly appreciative of Mr. Sonboli's responses regardless of the ideological differences we may or may not have.

Now, Mr Sonboli, I would disagree with you on your assumption that this this debate has in fact gone on for too long, if anything it has not gone on long enough.

You had written:
1.Regarding Carter pressure, many believe in that. However, if you follow later developments, you see that the US could not keep Shah on power and they thought about Plan B and Plan C; diversion of the revolution and military coup. That’s what right now is happening in some Arab countries.

Commentary:
I do not believe you understand why Carter's role was so important. Because even though the United States had plans in place to have a military coup or the diversion of the revolution it was Carter who ultimately said, no we are not going to do this. Let us talk with the Shah, and have him make concessions and see if he can remain in power, otherwise it will all fall apart regardless. He was the one who wanted the United States to exert a higher level of moral and ethical superiority and he basically forced the Shah to be selective with his use of violence rather than allow him to run rampant with his use of violence to suppress the revolution.

2.Regarding democratic leaders, I do not mean top down. To lead a society you need so many people in different fields of civil society and government. Lack of democratic experiences causes many problems, especially when revolutionary leaders come from different ideological backgrounds. It’s just enough to compare position of different political groups in MENA countries with those of different parties in the US, Germany, Japan, etc. While in MENA there are many parties with totally different ideals, in developed countries there are few parties with few essential different opinions and mostly with technical differences

Commentary:
If you do not mean top down then I am having a hard time understanding what you would need to implement democracy in in Iran or the rest of the Middle East. The reason I say this is because you mention that Democracy need experience otherwise it [democracy] "causes many problems." I would pose the question, What are these problems exactly? and what are the ideological divisions of political parties in the MENA region versus those of developed nations? I would posit the argument that there are fewer ideological differences in the MENA region that leads to various political parties versus the developed nations fragmented political system.

MENA has a problem of multiple ethnic and religious groups banding together to gain political representation and power and portraying a collective unity when the group is split on what should be the role of government - Large or small & socialist or capitalistic - but in the the developed democratic regimes there are legitimate divisions between people on an ideological level as to what the role of government is and what should be the proper was to govern that the civil society has a radically different outlook toward government. In the MENA region, the civil society asks the questions "What can I get from the government?" Or "What can the government do for me?"

The prime illustration of this is the consociational democracy in Lebanon that distributes power based on the perceived population of the religious groups in Lebanon (Presidency going the Maronite Christians, Prime Minister to a Sunni Muslim, and the Speaker of the Parliament a Shiite Muslim) or the ethnic groups that divide Iraq - Kurd, Shi'ite, and Sunni. In Iraq the religious groups have splintered into these perceived ethnic groups based on the group's ability to protect them from "the other" and in this case the "other" is a religious group that they have co-habitated with for years. Look at cities like Baghdad, Kirkuk, Basra, Al-Najaf, and Karbala. These are towns of multiculturalism within Iraq where Sunni's, Shiites and Christians lived for years and after the fall of Saddam's regime they broke down and there became death squads that attacked another person based on a religious differentiation because that religious differentiation posed a threat to the power that group could gain through their elimination in a newly constructed form of Iraqi governance.

Ultimately, until MENA and more specifically, Iran, can get forget about the notion that an ethnic or religious segment of the population must rule for the benefit of that ethnic/religious segment the sooner we can see an implementation of democracy in the Middle East and the elimination of dictatorial regimes that plague the region. But if it holds to the belief that ethnic/religious communities are the sole basis for governance than we are going to see disgruntled segments of the population, we are going to see riots, and we are going to see attempts are revolution regardless of the gains made through the current revolutions.
 
Jennifer Nicole Prystupa

September 9, 2011

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I see I've come upon a very interesting discussion, and I thank the participants so far. I have to agree with Prof. Mazzucelli and my fellow students in the ethnic conflicts learning community, as well as many of the comments here regarding the bottom-up approach to democratic transitions, be they Serbian, Iranian, or Syrian. There is a tradition, whether one supports it or not or recognizes it or not, of the West dabbling in states or emerging states that shows a budding national interest to the former, either making it "democratic" or supporting dictators, which inevitably are a means to an end as we have seen over the past year.

In terms of Syria, and George Dekermenji makes an excellent point about the multi-ethnic status of MENA states like Lebanon, I can see Syria as a repeater Iraq if they overthrow Assad. The majority Sunni population has been in the shadow of the secretive Alawi branch of Shia Islam. Given the political domination of one sect over another, as was the case in Iraq, I would not be surprised if a Sunni-dominated government would emerge and politically ostracize the Shia in Syria.

This all depends on the actions of Iran and its proxy Hezbollah in Lebanon. The West is weak right now -- the EU and the US are suffering from financial crises and are preoccupied with domestic issues (which is why there is little movement on the peace talks between Israel and Palestine and stopping the UN bid on the US side, IMO). As was mentioned in the original posting, 15% unemployment is a staggering number for Iran, and they too are suffering from domestic, economic issues. Lebanon, is well, Lebanon, and I am not a Lebanon expert, but in my short time on this earth, I have never heard anything positive about the political situation there.

Given the situations outside of Syria, the time for the youth and other grassroots movements is ripe to try to take down a brutal, nepotistic regime. Will there be elements of outside forces supporting Assad? of course, and I'm sure there are Western influencers there as well. But the investment by these outside forces, given their domestic circumstances, lends itself to appear diminished, giving the indigenous populations their time to shine. Perhaps I am being optimistic, but I’m not a realist.

On a side note, I see some truth to Mr. Sonbali's words about the current state of Israel. Like any democracy, there is an enemy within. If anyone paid attention to the recent US debt "talks," then you are aware that democracies are not fool proof because they allow for all kinds of opinions, including extreme fringe opinions that are not in line with the mainstream. In this way, I would agree that Niklas' assumption that Iranians probably are sick of hearing disparaging remarks by their government against Israel and just want to get on with their lives. I would also agree with Mr. Sonbali's statement about the missteps of policies by the Israelis and Americans (and the PA), and from such, emerges a population that just wants an end to the policies that fuel the conflict and those who spew poison keeping it going.

I would disagree with Mr. Sonbali on a portion of this point: "…during the first half of the 20th century Palestinians accepted [Jews] when they could not live in Europe."

The latter half of this statement is not true. While European Zionists began to settle in Ottoman Palestine in the 1880s, the Palestinians (read: peasantry, the vast majority of the population) were NOT happy about it. Rather, the Ottoman elite, Istanbul, and some local, politically involved rich families and clans, who did not live on the land for the most part, sold their land to the Zionists coming in. But it was the peasantry that worked and lived on that land which felt the full brunt of settlement. I suggest a dated (1997 with a 2010 reissue) but interesting look into “Palestinian Identity” by Rashid Khalidi.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

September 10, 2011

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Ms. Prystupa, I do not want to go into much detail, but as I read it the Zionist pioneers were also welcomed with common tribes and locals, because they brought knowledge in farming and, of course, capital - those who were not ideologically preoccupied pretty much arranged with one another. Then there is of course the big story about the Husseini clan, the Second World War, the Grand Mufti and so forth - highly ideologically motivated pro-German, anti-Jewish activities along clashes among the Palestinian inhabitants in favor or against the Jewish immigrants. As I see it, the anti-Jewish branch unfortunately gained the upper hand and formed roots for the Palestinian National Movement in the 50s and 60s - until now the Grand Mufti is not criticized but seen as a hero.

And further, given the situation in the Middle East, Israel can only do wrong, because it can never satisfy her enemies. The only proof that the Israelis are doing something right is their ongoing existence - and that is precisely the premise of the Jewish state, not what all the wannabe-peacemakers coming from where ever imagine. In this very moment, given the hostility of not only Iran, but also long-term partner Turkey and at least cold-friend Egypt, I wish there were some more analysts to recognize that very premise. If it were so, at least a more peace-like situation would be a realistic perspective - ain´t so right now ...
 
George  Dekermenji

September 11, 2011

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Mr. Anzinger,

I would find your interpretation of history as biased. Early Zionists that moved into the region of Palestine [I use the term Palestine to describe the Biblical references to the region, and what some assume to be the region that was granted to the Jews through God.] during the 1880s - also known as "The Greater 'Sham'" [Sham is the Arabic word for Damascus and its surrounding suburbs] - under the control of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire did not prevent the flow of Early Zionist Jews into the territory because they did not view the increase of Jews as a legitimate threat to their power. Also there was a drastic overestimation of the wealth of Jewish Immigrants because most moved to the region through the collective pooled money of the World Zionist Organization. They were the ones that bought the land that allowed people to move there. Did they bring some working knowledge of farming, but that was not the reason they were welcomed into the region. When they first moved into the region they did not attempt to carve out their own land, they did not cause problems, they just went about praying and working largely keeping to themselves and having little interaction with other peoples in the region. It is precisely because of their disinterest in building power, and political events that people accepted them into the region.

Shortly after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the continued immigration from Europe to Palestine you see the influx of a more motivated and politically active class of Jews immigrate to the region. They band together to form groups such as the Haganah or the more radical Irgun Tsva'i-Leumi (National Military Organization), also know as the "Irgun." You cannot underscore the role that these organization played in defending the Jews living in Palestine AND recognizing the antagonistic actions they took toward the indigenous populations and foreign powers. I would highly encourage you to read A History of the Modern Middle East by William Cleveland and the account presented of the 1920-1921 Arab Riots and the development of early Israeli parties and their actions they took.

In regards to your point about the Grand Mufti, I would like to know what account you have read that view him as a hero outside of Saudi Arabia. The reason I'm so specific about that is because the Grand Mufti, in that accounts I have read, is largely questioned as and in some even viewed as a traitor against his "Arab Brothers" because he abandoned the fight against the Zionist Regime in the Israel and let them exist while letting his people suffer the consequences of "Foreign Rule." If you could please direct me to your sources I would greatly appreciate it.

Now, I do not think this is the forum to be discussing the Middle East Peace Process but there are substantial oversights in your analysis of the Middle East Peace Process. Let us parse out your first statement: ".... Israel can only do wrong, because it can never satisfy her enemies." If we assume that she cannot satisfy her enemies then we must 1 or 2 things - 1)that her enemies demands are unreasonable or 2) she refuses to comply to her enemies demands. I pose the question, what are the top demands of Israel's enemies? Regardless of what the demands may be from Israel's enemies, any impartial historical interpretation will show you how Israel's enemies and Israel have attempted to circumvent the demands of the other. Therefore equal blame is to be distributed for the lack of a peace process on all parties. For example, for every radical action undertaken by the Palestinians, primarily through Hamas' military faction, I can provide an equally damaging action that was caused by the Radical Jewish Settler's that are moving into territories that are occupied by Palestinians and that the land itself is not even recognized by Israel to be part of its own borders further antagonizing and limiting the effect of the peace process.

Let us move onto your second major point: "The only proof that the Israelis are doing something right is their ongoing existence - and that is precisely the premise of the Jewish state, not what all the wannabe-peacemakers coming from where ever imagine. In this very moment, given the hostility of not only Iran, but also long-term partner Turkey and at least cold-friend Egypt ..." No one in the modern era with the exception of Ahmadinejad of Iran and a handful of Radicals does not believe Israel has earned the right to be in the Middle East and does not deserve the right to be able to protect itself from foreign powers. However, Israel has a double standard in regards to protecting itself and not allowing its neighbors to protect themselves.

The reason Arafat never signed the Oslow Accords was that it was a bad deal but it also prevented Palestine from militarizing itself to defend against possible attackers. What does that actually mean to the peace process and to Palestine. This means that Palestine will never be able to achieve the fundamental requirement to be a full fledged country, the ability to defend itself from foreign powers in the case of a war or possible aggression. There is an unreasonable expectation that Israel is the sole arbiter of weaponry and the right to defend itself in the Middle East because they are perceived to be vulnerable. The reality is that the United States gives BILLIONS in military aid in addition to over 3 billion dollars a year in civilian aid and that their air force is the 3rd strongest air force in the world behind the US Air Force and the US Navy. I have a hard time believing that Israel cannot simultaneously defend itself and allow the Palestinians to militarize, which is within their inherent rights as a burgeoning nation.

Ultimately Mr. Anzinger I find your statements biased toward a Zionist view of history and while that may or may not be your predisposition I would urge you to re-examine some of your inclinations. I do this out of a need to expand upon your existing knowledge in a similar way to myself. I came from the opposite view point, the pro-Arab view point, only to realize that the only way to generate a complete and acceptable peace agreement can be derived from an impartial analysis of the historical record.

In science we were taught that for every action there is an equal or greater reaction, and the same holds true for human actions and reactions. Initial blame can be assessed but proves to be inconsequential because of the historical memory of perceived injustices. In order to come to a peace accord the parties need to end their policy of reciprocity and become the "better person" and choose not to react to an action.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

September 11, 2011

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Thanks for tanking such a long time for your answer, Mr. Dekermenji. Please allow me to make just some brief notifications - I just try to outline my argumentation briefly, because I have experienced that history lessons on this platform should be, if seen as necessary, at least brief. Regarding most parts of your historical remarks I would agree, but you are missing the parts of brutal attempts and mob attacks of Arabs against Jews, and the part about Arab Nazi co-alliance, I was talking about.

Regarding your question about my sources: these are precisely Jeffrey Herf, Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World, and Matthias Küntzel, Jihad and Jew-Hatred for that specific case.

Further, do you really think peace with Yasser Arafat would have been possible? All the new historical documents indicate the same: Arafat has never retreated from the position that negotiations are only good for moving himself in a better position for the final battle against Israel. He was planning the Second Intifada and looking for an excuse. He wanted to have it all. I would say, peace has never been possible until Arafat died, afterwards it was getting more complicated.

During my research, I gave special attention to anti-Semitic argumentation and continuations of anti-Semitic thought - the first history lesson of the 20th century should be that anti-Semites mean what they say. And just have a look at Palestinian and Arab media and their picturing of the Jews, distorting history and blaming their faults on them. Just as recently shown in Egypt in the attack against the embassy. My argument is based on that very observation that anti-Semites, as rational they can appear, do not get satisfied by their object (not necessarily Jews) acting in some way or another.

I believe the Israeli premises for peace are indeed very easy to see and calculate upon them, but the premises of all the neighbors and mostly the Palestinians constantly change, you can never count on them. And further, regarding their actions in the last decades and also due to research and polls in the region, I fear that the only premise lasting long time is that Israel is Palestinian land and the Zionists are foreign invaders. But they have to remove from that premise, it makes peace is impossible. If this is your land, then you are justified to defend it - negotiations and agreements can´t change this justification.

But let´s have this discussion continued via e-Mail please.
 
Meital  Tzobotaro

September 12, 2011

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Dear all,

I would like to thank you for the insightful contributions. It is this type of discussion that allows us to critically think about our own views and understand others’ perspectives.

The question of change in Iran, as mentioned before, is one only the Iranian people can answer. As academics, students, and practitioners from different backgrounds we can hypothesize and continue the quest in gaining a better understanding of the situation through paralleling it to similar events. Of course, no two events are exactly alike.

Reading through the commentaries, two questions come to mind:

The first, which is explored in the article, is when will change and reform play out in Iran?
I agree with many of the previous commentators that many times, certain conditions must be met in order for a country to reach the ‘ripeness’ for change. I believe we have yet to witness this in Iran for the above reason. In addition, whatever ‘change’ means for Iran might be very different from our own definition and therefore we must keep an open mind when analyzing it in this context.

The second question that comes to mind is regarding the basic human rights of Iranians in their own country. Although I am not an Iran expert, it is widely known that oppression of different sectors of the population is a continuous practice of the regime. Previous commentators mentioned unsuccessful/undesirable/unjustified interventions from countries in the west (such as the U.S. and/or European Countries) in places such as Afghanistan and Iraq. However, I believe there are other instances where intervention potentially saved thousands of lives such as during the first Golf War. Indeed, interventions are often times strategically thought and the global political climate will always influence the choice of countries to intervene or not to intervene, regardless of the ‘rightness’ to do so. Specifically in the context of Iran, I wonder if the regime’s treatment of its own people is landing it a justified intervention? In other words, is the world’s inaction permitting the death, torture, and brutalization of peoples unjustly? I would like to clarify that my definition of intervention is much broader and I believe that more creativity is needed in deciding what intervention constitutes. I do not exclusively talk about military intervention, but rather other creative means to influence the current regime to treat its own people better.
 
Meital  Tzobotaro

September 12, 2011

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Mr. Sonoboll,

Thank you for your insight and comments. I would like to stress that whether you agree or disagree with Israel’s policies toward the Palestinian Territories, it is no justification or legitimation to Iran’s conduct towards its own people and minority groups. Two wrongs don’t make it right. If Iran’s leadership disagrees with Israel’s policies, which it has the right to do, it should lead by example and not terrorize its own people while criticizing other countries for doing the same.

I agree with your comment that “freedom of expression has been turned into freedom of deception”, although we must keep in mind the every coin has two sides. With freedom of expression come both good and bad consequences. At least Israel has open channels of communication in which others have the opportunity to speak out and current misreporting (as you claim the newspaper Haartz does); unfortunately Iran does not, and when the government controls your only source of information you must imagine what are the potential consequences. When there is no balancing force how does one decide which statements are true and which are false?
 

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